Datasets:

---

innovation-hacking2

/

shitposting_dataset1

like 0

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat.", ">\n\nThis is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.\nPremise: intersex people exist.\nQuestion: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid? Or do they have to pick one?\nIf they are not allowed to do that: why? That seems completely absurd. Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.\nIf they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex? Are they allowed to do that too?\nIf not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.\nIf so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat.", ">\n\nThis is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.\nPremise: intersex people exist.\nQuestion: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid? Or do they have to pick one?\nIf they are not allowed to do that: why? That seems completely absurd. Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.\nIf they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex? Are they allowed to do that too?\nIf not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.\nIf so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that.", ">\n\nBut you’re describing a biological condition. An intersex person could not fit into either, but the large majority of blue haired 16 year olds are biologically within the binary and still call themselves non-binary , aren’t they then appropriating intersex people?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat.", ">\n\nThis is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.\nPremise: intersex people exist.\nQuestion: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid? Or do they have to pick one?\nIf they are not allowed to do that: why? That seems completely absurd. Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.\nIf they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex? Are they allowed to do that too?\nIf not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.\nIf so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that.", ">\n\nBut you’re describing a biological condition. An intersex person could not fit into either, but the large majority of blue haired 16 year olds are biologically within the binary and still call themselves non-binary , aren’t they then appropriating intersex people?", ">\n\nH-word? Plz explain." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat.", ">\n\nThis is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.\nPremise: intersex people exist.\nQuestion: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid? Or do they have to pick one?\nIf they are not allowed to do that: why? That seems completely absurd. Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.\nIf they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex? Are they allowed to do that too?\nIf not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.\nIf so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that.", ">\n\nBut you’re describing a biological condition. An intersex person could not fit into either, but the large majority of blue haired 16 year olds are biologically within the binary and still call themselves non-binary , aren’t they then appropriating intersex people?", ">\n\nH-word? Plz explain.", ">\n\nIt’s just another way of saying “look at me”. Just because someone isn’t a stereotype of their gender doesn’t mean they’re some in between gender or anything else. Are people who don’t fit a racial stereotype anything other than their race?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat.", ">\n\nThis is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.\nPremise: intersex people exist.\nQuestion: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid? Or do they have to pick one?\nIf they are not allowed to do that: why? That seems completely absurd. Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.\nIf they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex? Are they allowed to do that too?\nIf not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.\nIf so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that.", ">\n\nBut you’re describing a biological condition. An intersex person could not fit into either, but the large majority of blue haired 16 year olds are biologically within the binary and still call themselves non-binary , aren’t they then appropriating intersex people?", ">\n\nH-word? Plz explain.", ">\n\nIt’s just another way of saying “look at me”. Just because someone isn’t a stereotype of their gender doesn’t mean they’re some in between gender or anything else. Are people who don’t fit a racial stereotype anything other than their race?", ">\n\nPeople answered your questions very well but I want to add an empathetic viewpoint. \nIt doesn't matter if you understand something or not. What happens if you accept their gender identity? Happy life and recognition for the individual. \nWhat happens if you resist to comply with your nephew's gender identity? Depression, gender dysphoria, or even suicide in many cases. It really doesn't fair to push a teenager's fragile mental wellness just because you don't understand something. \nJust move on. Life is already hard as it is. Who gives a fuck if you are well informed about gender and sex. And I'm writing this with a friendly manner. If you were honestly curious and eager to learn about it, you would read peer reviewed papers instead of reddit comments." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat.", ">\n\nThis is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.\nPremise: intersex people exist.\nQuestion: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid? Or do they have to pick one?\nIf they are not allowed to do that: why? That seems completely absurd. Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.\nIf they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex? Are they allowed to do that too?\nIf not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.\nIf so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that.", ">\n\nBut you’re describing a biological condition. An intersex person could not fit into either, but the large majority of blue haired 16 year olds are biologically within the binary and still call themselves non-binary , aren’t they then appropriating intersex people?", ">\n\nH-word? Plz explain.", ">\n\nIt’s just another way of saying “look at me”. Just because someone isn’t a stereotype of their gender doesn’t mean they’re some in between gender or anything else. Are people who don’t fit a racial stereotype anything other than their race?", ">\n\nPeople answered your questions very well but I want to add an empathetic viewpoint. \nIt doesn't matter if you understand something or not. What happens if you accept their gender identity? Happy life and recognition for the individual. \nWhat happens if you resist to comply with your nephew's gender identity? Depression, gender dysphoria, or even suicide in many cases. It really doesn't fair to push a teenager's fragile mental wellness just because you don't understand something. \nJust move on. Life is already hard as it is. Who gives a fuck if you are well informed about gender and sex. And I'm writing this with a friendly manner. If you were honestly curious and eager to learn about it, you would read peer reviewed papers instead of reddit comments.", ">\n\nIf there can be 100 genders then why can't non-binary be the thing. Anyone can indentify with anything. It may not sound meaningful to you but it is for them." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat.", ">\n\nThis is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.\nPremise: intersex people exist.\nQuestion: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid? Or do they have to pick one?\nIf they are not allowed to do that: why? That seems completely absurd. Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.\nIf they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex? Are they allowed to do that too?\nIf not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.\nIf so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that.", ">\n\nBut you’re describing a biological condition. An intersex person could not fit into either, but the large majority of blue haired 16 year olds are biologically within the binary and still call themselves non-binary , aren’t they then appropriating intersex people?", ">\n\nH-word? Plz explain.", ">\n\nIt’s just another way of saying “look at me”. Just because someone isn’t a stereotype of their gender doesn’t mean they’re some in between gender or anything else. Are people who don’t fit a racial stereotype anything other than their race?", ">\n\nPeople answered your questions very well but I want to add an empathetic viewpoint. \nIt doesn't matter if you understand something or not. What happens if you accept their gender identity? Happy life and recognition for the individual. \nWhat happens if you resist to comply with your nephew's gender identity? Depression, gender dysphoria, or even suicide in many cases. It really doesn't fair to push a teenager's fragile mental wellness just because you don't understand something. \nJust move on. Life is already hard as it is. Who gives a fuck if you are well informed about gender and sex. And I'm writing this with a friendly manner. If you were honestly curious and eager to learn about it, you would read peer reviewed papers instead of reddit comments.", ">\n\nIf there can be 100 genders then why can't non-binary be the thing. Anyone can indentify with anything. It may not sound meaningful to you but it is for them.", ">\n\n\nI have known two separate sets of parents who have dealt with gender dysphoria in their children.\n\nHey, genuine question. Of the new children around you, what your observed rate of gender dysphoria ?\nI am still working on my beliefs around 'fashions' vs 'base rates'. This would help. Thanks." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat.", ">\n\nThis is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.\nPremise: intersex people exist.\nQuestion: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid? Or do they have to pick one?\nIf they are not allowed to do that: why? That seems completely absurd. Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.\nIf they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex? Are they allowed to do that too?\nIf not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.\nIf so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that.", ">\n\nBut you’re describing a biological condition. An intersex person could not fit into either, but the large majority of blue haired 16 year olds are biologically within the binary and still call themselves non-binary , aren’t they then appropriating intersex people?", ">\n\nH-word? Plz explain.", ">\n\nIt’s just another way of saying “look at me”. Just because someone isn’t a stereotype of their gender doesn’t mean they’re some in between gender or anything else. Are people who don’t fit a racial stereotype anything other than their race?", ">\n\nPeople answered your questions very well but I want to add an empathetic viewpoint. \nIt doesn't matter if you understand something or not. What happens if you accept their gender identity? Happy life and recognition for the individual. \nWhat happens if you resist to comply with your nephew's gender identity? Depression, gender dysphoria, or even suicide in many cases. It really doesn't fair to push a teenager's fragile mental wellness just because you don't understand something. \nJust move on. Life is already hard as it is. Who gives a fuck if you are well informed about gender and sex. And I'm writing this with a friendly manner. If you were honestly curious and eager to learn about it, you would read peer reviewed papers instead of reddit comments.", ">\n\nIf there can be 100 genders then why can't non-binary be the thing. Anyone can indentify with anything. It may not sound meaningful to you but it is for them.", ">\n\n\nI have known two separate sets of parents who have dealt with gender dysphoria in their children.\n\nHey, genuine question. Of the new children around you, what your observed rate of gender dysphoria ?\nI am still working on my beliefs around 'fashions' vs 'base rates'. This would help. Thanks.", ">\n\nwhats a nibbling? a child?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat.", ">\n\nThis is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.\nPremise: intersex people exist.\nQuestion: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid? Or do they have to pick one?\nIf they are not allowed to do that: why? That seems completely absurd. Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.\nIf they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex? Are they allowed to do that too?\nIf not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.\nIf so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that.", ">\n\nBut you’re describing a biological condition. An intersex person could not fit into either, but the large majority of blue haired 16 year olds are biologically within the binary and still call themselves non-binary , aren’t they then appropriating intersex people?", ">\n\nH-word? Plz explain.", ">\n\nIt’s just another way of saying “look at me”. Just because someone isn’t a stereotype of their gender doesn’t mean they’re some in between gender or anything else. Are people who don’t fit a racial stereotype anything other than their race?", ">\n\nPeople answered your questions very well but I want to add an empathetic viewpoint. \nIt doesn't matter if you understand something or not. What happens if you accept their gender identity? Happy life and recognition for the individual. \nWhat happens if you resist to comply with your nephew's gender identity? Depression, gender dysphoria, or even suicide in many cases. It really doesn't fair to push a teenager's fragile mental wellness just because you don't understand something. \nJust move on. Life is already hard as it is. Who gives a fuck if you are well informed about gender and sex. And I'm writing this with a friendly manner. If you were honestly curious and eager to learn about it, you would read peer reviewed papers instead of reddit comments.", ">\n\nIf there can be 100 genders then why can't non-binary be the thing. Anyone can indentify with anything. It may not sound meaningful to you but it is for them.", ">\n\n\nI have known two separate sets of parents who have dealt with gender dysphoria in their children.\n\nHey, genuine question. Of the new children around you, what your observed rate of gender dysphoria ?\nI am still working on my beliefs around 'fashions' vs 'base rates'. This would help. Thanks.", ">\n\nwhats a nibbling? a child?", ">\n\nthis is reddit, my dude. what kind of comments did you expect?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat.", ">\n\nThis is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.\nPremise: intersex people exist.\nQuestion: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid? Or do they have to pick one?\nIf they are not allowed to do that: why? That seems completely absurd. Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.\nIf they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex? Are they allowed to do that too?\nIf not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.\nIf so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that.", ">\n\nBut you’re describing a biological condition. An intersex person could not fit into either, but the large majority of blue haired 16 year olds are biologically within the binary and still call themselves non-binary , aren’t they then appropriating intersex people?", ">\n\nH-word? Plz explain.", ">\n\nIt’s just another way of saying “look at me”. Just because someone isn’t a stereotype of their gender doesn’t mean they’re some in between gender or anything else. Are people who don’t fit a racial stereotype anything other than their race?", ">\n\nPeople answered your questions very well but I want to add an empathetic viewpoint. \nIt doesn't matter if you understand something or not. What happens if you accept their gender identity? Happy life and recognition for the individual. \nWhat happens if you resist to comply with your nephew's gender identity? Depression, gender dysphoria, or even suicide in many cases. It really doesn't fair to push a teenager's fragile mental wellness just because you don't understand something. \nJust move on. Life is already hard as it is. Who gives a fuck if you are well informed about gender and sex. And I'm writing this with a friendly manner. If you were honestly curious and eager to learn about it, you would read peer reviewed papers instead of reddit comments.", ">\n\nIf there can be 100 genders then why can't non-binary be the thing. Anyone can indentify with anything. It may not sound meaningful to you but it is for them.", ">\n\n\nI have known two separate sets of parents who have dealt with gender dysphoria in their children.\n\nHey, genuine question. Of the new children around you, what your observed rate of gender dysphoria ?\nI am still working on my beliefs around 'fashions' vs 'base rates'. This would help. Thanks.", ">\n\nwhats a nibbling? a child?", ">\n\nthis is reddit, my dude. what kind of comments did you expect?", ">\n\nwtf is a \"nibling\"? istg woke terms have gotten stupider since \"latinx\"" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat.", ">\n\nThis is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.\nPremise: intersex people exist.\nQuestion: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid? Or do they have to pick one?\nIf they are not allowed to do that: why? That seems completely absurd. Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.\nIf they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex? Are they allowed to do that too?\nIf not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.\nIf so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that.", ">\n\nBut you’re describing a biological condition. An intersex person could not fit into either, but the large majority of blue haired 16 year olds are biologically within the binary and still call themselves non-binary , aren’t they then appropriating intersex people?", ">\n\nH-word? Plz explain.", ">\n\nIt’s just another way of saying “look at me”. Just because someone isn’t a stereotype of their gender doesn’t mean they’re some in between gender or anything else. Are people who don’t fit a racial stereotype anything other than their race?", ">\n\nPeople answered your questions very well but I want to add an empathetic viewpoint. \nIt doesn't matter if you understand something or not. What happens if you accept their gender identity? Happy life and recognition for the individual. \nWhat happens if you resist to comply with your nephew's gender identity? Depression, gender dysphoria, or even suicide in many cases. It really doesn't fair to push a teenager's fragile mental wellness just because you don't understand something. \nJust move on. Life is already hard as it is. Who gives a fuck if you are well informed about gender and sex. And I'm writing this with a friendly manner. If you were honestly curious and eager to learn about it, you would read peer reviewed papers instead of reddit comments.", ">\n\nIf there can be 100 genders then why can't non-binary be the thing. Anyone can indentify with anything. It may not sound meaningful to you but it is for them.", ">\n\n\nI have known two separate sets of parents who have dealt with gender dysphoria in their children.\n\nHey, genuine question. Of the new children around you, what your observed rate of gender dysphoria ?\nI am still working on my beliefs around 'fashions' vs 'base rates'. This would help. Thanks.", ">\n\nwhats a nibbling? a child?", ">\n\nthis is reddit, my dude. what kind of comments did you expect?", ">\n\nwtf is a \"nibling\"? istg woke terms have gotten stupider since \"latinx\"", ">\n\nButch women and femboy are examples of non-binary genders imo" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat.", ">\n\nThis is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.\nPremise: intersex people exist.\nQuestion: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid? Or do they have to pick one?\nIf they are not allowed to do that: why? That seems completely absurd. Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.\nIf they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex? Are they allowed to do that too?\nIf not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.\nIf so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that.", ">\n\nBut you’re describing a biological condition. An intersex person could not fit into either, but the large majority of blue haired 16 year olds are biologically within the binary and still call themselves non-binary , aren’t they then appropriating intersex people?", ">\n\nH-word? Plz explain.", ">\n\nIt’s just another way of saying “look at me”. Just because someone isn’t a stereotype of their gender doesn’t mean they’re some in between gender or anything else. Are people who don’t fit a racial stereotype anything other than their race?", ">\n\nPeople answered your questions very well but I want to add an empathetic viewpoint. \nIt doesn't matter if you understand something or not. What happens if you accept their gender identity? Happy life and recognition for the individual. \nWhat happens if you resist to comply with your nephew's gender identity? Depression, gender dysphoria, or even suicide in many cases. It really doesn't fair to push a teenager's fragile mental wellness just because you don't understand something. \nJust move on. Life is already hard as it is. Who gives a fuck if you are well informed about gender and sex. And I'm writing this with a friendly manner. If you were honestly curious and eager to learn about it, you would read peer reviewed papers instead of reddit comments.", ">\n\nIf there can be 100 genders then why can't non-binary be the thing. Anyone can indentify with anything. It may not sound meaningful to you but it is for them.", ">\n\n\nI have known two separate sets of parents who have dealt with gender dysphoria in their children.\n\nHey, genuine question. Of the new children around you, what your observed rate of gender dysphoria ?\nI am still working on my beliefs around 'fashions' vs 'base rates'. This would help. Thanks.", ">\n\nwhats a nibbling? a child?", ">\n\nthis is reddit, my dude. what kind of comments did you expect?", ">\n\nwtf is a \"nibling\"? istg woke terms have gotten stupider since \"latinx\"", ">\n\nButch women and femboy are examples of non-binary genders imo", ">\n\nNot really. A feminine man isn't less of a man than a masculine man and a masculine woman isn't less of a woman than a feminine woman. They express themselves differently but their gender remains the same." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat.", ">\n\nThis is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.\nPremise: intersex people exist.\nQuestion: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid? Or do they have to pick one?\nIf they are not allowed to do that: why? That seems completely absurd. Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.\nIf they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex? Are they allowed to do that too?\nIf not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.\nIf so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that.", ">\n\nBut you’re describing a biological condition. An intersex person could not fit into either, but the large majority of blue haired 16 year olds are biologically within the binary and still call themselves non-binary , aren’t they then appropriating intersex people?", ">\n\nH-word? Plz explain.", ">\n\nIt’s just another way of saying “look at me”. Just because someone isn’t a stereotype of their gender doesn’t mean they’re some in between gender or anything else. Are people who don’t fit a racial stereotype anything other than their race?", ">\n\nPeople answered your questions very well but I want to add an empathetic viewpoint. \nIt doesn't matter if you understand something or not. What happens if you accept their gender identity? Happy life and recognition for the individual. \nWhat happens if you resist to comply with your nephew's gender identity? Depression, gender dysphoria, or even suicide in many cases. It really doesn't fair to push a teenager's fragile mental wellness just because you don't understand something. \nJust move on. Life is already hard as it is. Who gives a fuck if you are well informed about gender and sex. And I'm writing this with a friendly manner. If you were honestly curious and eager to learn about it, you would read peer reviewed papers instead of reddit comments.", ">\n\nIf there can be 100 genders then why can't non-binary be the thing. Anyone can indentify with anything. It may not sound meaningful to you but it is for them.", ">\n\n\nI have known two separate sets of parents who have dealt with gender dysphoria in their children.\n\nHey, genuine question. Of the new children around you, what your observed rate of gender dysphoria ?\nI am still working on my beliefs around 'fashions' vs 'base rates'. This would help. Thanks.", ">\n\nwhats a nibbling? a child?", ">\n\nthis is reddit, my dude. what kind of comments did you expect?", ">\n\nwtf is a \"nibling\"? istg woke terms have gotten stupider since \"latinx\"", ">\n\nButch women and femboy are examples of non-binary genders imo", ">\n\nNot really. A feminine man isn't less of a man than a masculine man and a masculine woman isn't less of a woman than a feminine woman. They express themselves differently but their gender remains the same.", ">\n\nI didn't say that and I consider myself something of a butch" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat.", ">\n\nThis is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.\nPremise: intersex people exist.\nQuestion: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid? Or do they have to pick one?\nIf they are not allowed to do that: why? That seems completely absurd. Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.\nIf they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex? Are they allowed to do that too?\nIf not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.\nIf so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that.", ">\n\nBut you’re describing a biological condition. An intersex person could not fit into either, but the large majority of blue haired 16 year olds are biologically within the binary and still call themselves non-binary , aren’t they then appropriating intersex people?", ">\n\nH-word? Plz explain.", ">\n\nIt’s just another way of saying “look at me”. Just because someone isn’t a stereotype of their gender doesn’t mean they’re some in between gender or anything else. Are people who don’t fit a racial stereotype anything other than their race?", ">\n\nPeople answered your questions very well but I want to add an empathetic viewpoint. \nIt doesn't matter if you understand something or not. What happens if you accept their gender identity? Happy life and recognition for the individual. \nWhat happens if you resist to comply with your nephew's gender identity? Depression, gender dysphoria, or even suicide in many cases. It really doesn't fair to push a teenager's fragile mental wellness just because you don't understand something. \nJust move on. Life is already hard as it is. Who gives a fuck if you are well informed about gender and sex. And I'm writing this with a friendly manner. If you were honestly curious and eager to learn about it, you would read peer reviewed papers instead of reddit comments.", ">\n\nIf there can be 100 genders then why can't non-binary be the thing. Anyone can indentify with anything. It may not sound meaningful to you but it is for them.", ">\n\n\nI have known two separate sets of parents who have dealt with gender dysphoria in their children.\n\nHey, genuine question. Of the new children around you, what your observed rate of gender dysphoria ?\nI am still working on my beliefs around 'fashions' vs 'base rates'. This would help. Thanks.", ">\n\nwhats a nibbling? a child?", ">\n\nthis is reddit, my dude. what kind of comments did you expect?", ">\n\nwtf is a \"nibling\"? istg woke terms have gotten stupider since \"latinx\"", ">\n\nButch women and femboy are examples of non-binary genders imo", ">\n\nNot really. A feminine man isn't less of a man than a masculine man and a masculine woman isn't less of a woman than a feminine woman. They express themselves differently but their gender remains the same.", ">\n\nI didn't say that and I consider myself something of a butch", ">\n\nThey may not be doing it for attention. It's a logical conclusion of believing that 'woman' and 'man' each refer to a collection of gendered stereotypes, rather than being based on the material reality of one's sex. Want to rebel against such impositions without tearing down this whole belief system? 'Non-binary' solves this, or at least gives the illusion of such, on an individualistic level." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat.", ">\n\nThis is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.\nPremise: intersex people exist.\nQuestion: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid? Or do they have to pick one?\nIf they are not allowed to do that: why? That seems completely absurd. Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.\nIf they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex? Are they allowed to do that too?\nIf not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.\nIf so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that.", ">\n\nBut you’re describing a biological condition. An intersex person could not fit into either, but the large majority of blue haired 16 year olds are biologically within the binary and still call themselves non-binary , aren’t they then appropriating intersex people?", ">\n\nH-word? Plz explain.", ">\n\nIt’s just another way of saying “look at me”. Just because someone isn’t a stereotype of their gender doesn’t mean they’re some in between gender or anything else. Are people who don’t fit a racial stereotype anything other than their race?", ">\n\nPeople answered your questions very well but I want to add an empathetic viewpoint. \nIt doesn't matter if you understand something or not. What happens if you accept their gender identity? Happy life and recognition for the individual. \nWhat happens if you resist to comply with your nephew's gender identity? Depression, gender dysphoria, or even suicide in many cases. It really doesn't fair to push a teenager's fragile mental wellness just because you don't understand something. \nJust move on. Life is already hard as it is. Who gives a fuck if you are well informed about gender and sex. And I'm writing this with a friendly manner. If you were honestly curious and eager to learn about it, you would read peer reviewed papers instead of reddit comments.", ">\n\nIf there can be 100 genders then why can't non-binary be the thing. Anyone can indentify with anything. It may not sound meaningful to you but it is for them.", ">\n\n\nI have known two separate sets of parents who have dealt with gender dysphoria in their children.\n\nHey, genuine question. Of the new children around you, what your observed rate of gender dysphoria ?\nI am still working on my beliefs around 'fashions' vs 'base rates'. This would help. Thanks.", ">\n\nwhats a nibbling? a child?", ">\n\nthis is reddit, my dude. what kind of comments did you expect?", ">\n\nwtf is a \"nibling\"? istg woke terms have gotten stupider since \"latinx\"", ">\n\nButch women and femboy are examples of non-binary genders imo", ">\n\nNot really. A feminine man isn't less of a man than a masculine man and a masculine woman isn't less of a woman than a feminine woman. They express themselves differently but their gender remains the same.", ">\n\nI didn't say that and I consider myself something of a butch", ">\n\nThey may not be doing it for attention. It's a logical conclusion of believing that 'woman' and 'man' each refer to a collection of gendered stereotypes, rather than being based on the material reality of one's sex. Want to rebel against such impositions without tearing down this whole belief system? 'Non-binary' solves this, or at least gives the illusion of such, on an individualistic level.", ">\n\nWhy do you need to worry at all about where to “draw the line”? Just let other people tell you what they are, call them what they want to be called and Don’t worry about it. You don’t need to ask them what their genitals look like (to find out if they are “hermaphrodite”) you don’t need to test their chromosomes (most of us have never tested our own), just let them tell you. Keep it simple." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat.", ">\n\nThis is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.\nPremise: intersex people exist.\nQuestion: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid? Or do they have to pick one?\nIf they are not allowed to do that: why? That seems completely absurd. Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.\nIf they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex? Are they allowed to do that too?\nIf not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.\nIf so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that.", ">\n\nBut you’re describing a biological condition. An intersex person could not fit into either, but the large majority of blue haired 16 year olds are biologically within the binary and still call themselves non-binary , aren’t they then appropriating intersex people?", ">\n\nH-word? Plz explain.", ">\n\nIt’s just another way of saying “look at me”. Just because someone isn’t a stereotype of their gender doesn’t mean they’re some in between gender or anything else. Are people who don’t fit a racial stereotype anything other than their race?", ">\n\nPeople answered your questions very well but I want to add an empathetic viewpoint. \nIt doesn't matter if you understand something or not. What happens if you accept their gender identity? Happy life and recognition for the individual. \nWhat happens if you resist to comply with your nephew's gender identity? Depression, gender dysphoria, or even suicide in many cases. It really doesn't fair to push a teenager's fragile mental wellness just because you don't understand something. \nJust move on. Life is already hard as it is. Who gives a fuck if you are well informed about gender and sex. And I'm writing this with a friendly manner. If you were honestly curious and eager to learn about it, you would read peer reviewed papers instead of reddit comments.", ">\n\nIf there can be 100 genders then why can't non-binary be the thing. Anyone can indentify with anything. It may not sound meaningful to you but it is for them.", ">\n\n\nI have known two separate sets of parents who have dealt with gender dysphoria in their children.\n\nHey, genuine question. Of the new children around you, what your observed rate of gender dysphoria ?\nI am still working on my beliefs around 'fashions' vs 'base rates'. This would help. Thanks.", ">\n\nwhats a nibbling? a child?", ">\n\nthis is reddit, my dude. what kind of comments did you expect?", ">\n\nwtf is a \"nibling\"? istg woke terms have gotten stupider since \"latinx\"", ">\n\nButch women and femboy are examples of non-binary genders imo", ">\n\nNot really. A feminine man isn't less of a man than a masculine man and a masculine woman isn't less of a woman than a feminine woman. They express themselves differently but their gender remains the same.", ">\n\nI didn't say that and I consider myself something of a butch", ">\n\nThey may not be doing it for attention. It's a logical conclusion of believing that 'woman' and 'man' each refer to a collection of gendered stereotypes, rather than being based on the material reality of one's sex. Want to rebel against such impositions without tearing down this whole belief system? 'Non-binary' solves this, or at least gives the illusion of such, on an individualistic level.", ">\n\nWhy do you need to worry at all about where to “draw the line”? Just let other people tell you what they are, call them what they want to be called and Don’t worry about it. You don’t need to ask them what their genitals look like (to find out if they are “hermaphrodite”) you don’t need to test their chromosomes (most of us have never tested our own), just let them tell you. Keep it simple.", ">\n\nSo, i think u more have an issue with ppl tbat insist on certain pronouns and/or make a big deal out of announcing they are non-binary than you do with the concept itself. Perhaps im just projecting cuz that's exactly how i feel haha! Its like ppl that try to cancel comedians for saying something racist.. they are a comedian, its basically implied that tbey arent being serious. But some people make a big fuss outta me saying i loved dave Chappelle's last special. I have an issue with attention-seeking in general..not the high level concept of what they are fighting for. Idk if any of this made sense but all in all, i think ur mostly (if not entirely) inline with how i think about this stuff. But wanted to point out that maybe u had more of an issue with people going outta their way to be loud/sensitive about tbis stuff than the stuff itself" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat.", ">\n\nThis is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.\nPremise: intersex people exist.\nQuestion: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid? Or do they have to pick one?\nIf they are not allowed to do that: why? That seems completely absurd. Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.\nIf they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex? Are they allowed to do that too?\nIf not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.\nIf so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that.", ">\n\nBut you’re describing a biological condition. An intersex person could not fit into either, but the large majority of blue haired 16 year olds are biologically within the binary and still call themselves non-binary , aren’t they then appropriating intersex people?", ">\n\nH-word? Plz explain.", ">\n\nIt’s just another way of saying “look at me”. Just because someone isn’t a stereotype of their gender doesn’t mean they’re some in between gender or anything else. Are people who don’t fit a racial stereotype anything other than their race?", ">\n\nPeople answered your questions very well but I want to add an empathetic viewpoint. \nIt doesn't matter if you understand something or not. What happens if you accept their gender identity? Happy life and recognition for the individual. \nWhat happens if you resist to comply with your nephew's gender identity? Depression, gender dysphoria, or even suicide in many cases. It really doesn't fair to push a teenager's fragile mental wellness just because you don't understand something. \nJust move on. Life is already hard as it is. Who gives a fuck if you are well informed about gender and sex. And I'm writing this with a friendly manner. If you were honestly curious and eager to learn about it, you would read peer reviewed papers instead of reddit comments.", ">\n\nIf there can be 100 genders then why can't non-binary be the thing. Anyone can indentify with anything. It may not sound meaningful to you but it is for them.", ">\n\n\nI have known two separate sets of parents who have dealt with gender dysphoria in their children.\n\nHey, genuine question. Of the new children around you, what your observed rate of gender dysphoria ?\nI am still working on my beliefs around 'fashions' vs 'base rates'. This would help. Thanks.", ">\n\nwhats a nibbling? a child?", ">\n\nthis is reddit, my dude. what kind of comments did you expect?", ">\n\nwtf is a \"nibling\"? istg woke terms have gotten stupider since \"latinx\"", ">\n\nButch women and femboy are examples of non-binary genders imo", ">\n\nNot really. A feminine man isn't less of a man than a masculine man and a masculine woman isn't less of a woman than a feminine woman. They express themselves differently but their gender remains the same.", ">\n\nI didn't say that and I consider myself something of a butch", ">\n\nThey may not be doing it for attention. It's a logical conclusion of believing that 'woman' and 'man' each refer to a collection of gendered stereotypes, rather than being based on the material reality of one's sex. Want to rebel against such impositions without tearing down this whole belief system? 'Non-binary' solves this, or at least gives the illusion of such, on an individualistic level.", ">\n\nWhy do you need to worry at all about where to “draw the line”? Just let other people tell you what they are, call them what they want to be called and Don’t worry about it. You don’t need to ask them what their genitals look like (to find out if they are “hermaphrodite”) you don’t need to test their chromosomes (most of us have never tested our own), just let them tell you. Keep it simple.", ">\n\nSo, i think u more have an issue with ppl tbat insist on certain pronouns and/or make a big deal out of announcing they are non-binary than you do with the concept itself. Perhaps im just projecting cuz that's exactly how i feel haha! Its like ppl that try to cancel comedians for saying something racist.. they are a comedian, its basically implied that tbey arent being serious. But some people make a big fuss outta me saying i loved dave Chappelle's last special. I have an issue with attention-seeking in general..not the high level concept of what they are fighting for. Idk if any of this made sense but all in all, i think ur mostly (if not entirely) inline with how i think about this stuff. But wanted to point out that maybe u had more of an issue with people going outta their way to be loud/sensitive about tbis stuff than the stuff itself", ">\n\nI have several friends that are medical specialists in this field. I don’t fully understand it myself. But the way it was explained to me is that there is Gender, Sex, and sexuality. There are a myriad of genes that cause and/or affect each one of these aspects of the human being. In most cases, you wind up with a human whose gender, sex, and sexuality all line up as either male, or female. For example I think and feel like a male, I have male genitalia, and I am sexually attracted to people who present with female attributes. \nIn about 2-10% of ALL mammal populations, the genes and gene expressions don’t “line up” cohesively on one end of the spectrum or the other. These individuals could present as female, think like a male, but have both male AND female genitalia. Others can think they are female, have male genitalia, and are attracted to people who present with male attributes. They could also think like a female, present as a male, but are sexually attracted to females. And several other combinations I haven’t mentioned or thought about.\nSo the idea that non-binary doesn’t exist, is like saying you can’t mix paint. Or better yet, you can’t have red hair, brown eye brows, and a cleft chin. Gene expression is super complex and varied. And often present in unique and special ways. These people used to be considered special and were revered by their community as having some connection with the Devine.\nHeck, there’s a population in South America where they have a unique adolescents transition that delays when a child with male genitalia have those genitalia descend. So you have families that have 2 daughters until adolescents. When suddenly one of those “daughters” suddenly starts to show male genitalia. Sexuality, and gender expression is way more fascinating than our white, privileged, Christian culture has allowed us to know about.\n[Edited to add] personally, “non-binary” is a great way to say, “I haven’t chosen to lean heavy in one specific way.” Either because they don’t want to, don’t care to, or don’t find a specific label self affirming. But I also realize that there would be combinations that would be best described as non-binary.\n[Edit 2] I have been corrected in that “thinking female or male” isn’t a thing. I clearly don’t understand gender very well, lol. And I was reminded that my language could imply that any of this is a decision. Not my intention at all." ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat.", ">\n\nThis is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.\nPremise: intersex people exist.\nQuestion: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid? Or do they have to pick one?\nIf they are not allowed to do that: why? That seems completely absurd. Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.\nIf they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex? Are they allowed to do that too?\nIf not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.\nIf so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that.", ">\n\nBut you’re describing a biological condition. An intersex person could not fit into either, but the large majority of blue haired 16 year olds are biologically within the binary and still call themselves non-binary , aren’t they then appropriating intersex people?", ">\n\nH-word? Plz explain.", ">\n\nIt’s just another way of saying “look at me”. Just because someone isn’t a stereotype of their gender doesn’t mean they’re some in between gender or anything else. Are people who don’t fit a racial stereotype anything other than their race?", ">\n\nPeople answered your questions very well but I want to add an empathetic viewpoint. \nIt doesn't matter if you understand something or not. What happens if you accept their gender identity? Happy life and recognition for the individual. \nWhat happens if you resist to comply with your nephew's gender identity? Depression, gender dysphoria, or even suicide in many cases. It really doesn't fair to push a teenager's fragile mental wellness just because you don't understand something. \nJust move on. Life is already hard as it is. Who gives a fuck if you are well informed about gender and sex. And I'm writing this with a friendly manner. If you were honestly curious and eager to learn about it, you would read peer reviewed papers instead of reddit comments.", ">\n\nIf there can be 100 genders then why can't non-binary be the thing. Anyone can indentify with anything. It may not sound meaningful to you but it is for them.", ">\n\n\nI have known two separate sets of parents who have dealt with gender dysphoria in their children.\n\nHey, genuine question. Of the new children around you, what your observed rate of gender dysphoria ?\nI am still working on my beliefs around 'fashions' vs 'base rates'. This would help. Thanks.", ">\n\nwhats a nibbling? a child?", ">\n\nthis is reddit, my dude. what kind of comments did you expect?", ">\n\nwtf is a \"nibling\"? istg woke terms have gotten stupider since \"latinx\"", ">\n\nButch women and femboy are examples of non-binary genders imo", ">\n\nNot really. A feminine man isn't less of a man than a masculine man and a masculine woman isn't less of a woman than a feminine woman. They express themselves differently but their gender remains the same.", ">\n\nI didn't say that and I consider myself something of a butch", ">\n\nThey may not be doing it for attention. It's a logical conclusion of believing that 'woman' and 'man' each refer to a collection of gendered stereotypes, rather than being based on the material reality of one's sex. Want to rebel against such impositions without tearing down this whole belief system? 'Non-binary' solves this, or at least gives the illusion of such, on an individualistic level.", ">\n\nWhy do you need to worry at all about where to “draw the line”? Just let other people tell you what they are, call them what they want to be called and Don’t worry about it. You don’t need to ask them what their genitals look like (to find out if they are “hermaphrodite”) you don’t need to test their chromosomes (most of us have never tested our own), just let them tell you. Keep it simple.", ">\n\nSo, i think u more have an issue with ppl tbat insist on certain pronouns and/or make a big deal out of announcing they are non-binary than you do with the concept itself. Perhaps im just projecting cuz that's exactly how i feel haha! Its like ppl that try to cancel comedians for saying something racist.. they are a comedian, its basically implied that tbey arent being serious. But some people make a big fuss outta me saying i loved dave Chappelle's last special. I have an issue with attention-seeking in general..not the high level concept of what they are fighting for. Idk if any of this made sense but all in all, i think ur mostly (if not entirely) inline with how i think about this stuff. But wanted to point out that maybe u had more of an issue with people going outta their way to be loud/sensitive about tbis stuff than the stuff itself", ">\n\nI have several friends that are medical specialists in this field. I don’t fully understand it myself. But the way it was explained to me is that there is Gender, Sex, and sexuality. There are a myriad of genes that cause and/or affect each one of these aspects of the human being. In most cases, you wind up with a human whose gender, sex, and sexuality all line up as either male, or female. For example I think and feel like a male, I have male genitalia, and I am sexually attracted to people who present with female attributes. \nIn about 2-10% of ALL mammal populations, the genes and gene expressions don’t “line up” cohesively on one end of the spectrum or the other. These individuals could present as female, think like a male, but have both male AND female genitalia. Others can think they are female, have male genitalia, and are attracted to people who present with male attributes. They could also think like a female, present as a male, but are sexually attracted to females. And several other combinations I haven’t mentioned or thought about.\nSo the idea that non-binary doesn’t exist, is like saying you can’t mix paint. Or better yet, you can’t have red hair, brown eye brows, and a cleft chin. Gene expression is super complex and varied. And often present in unique and special ways. These people used to be considered special and were revered by their community as having some connection with the Devine.\nHeck, there’s a population in South America where they have a unique adolescents transition that delays when a child with male genitalia have those genitalia descend. So you have families that have 2 daughters until adolescents. When suddenly one of those “daughters” suddenly starts to show male genitalia. Sexuality, and gender expression is way more fascinating than our white, privileged, Christian culture has allowed us to know about.\n[Edited to add] personally, “non-binary” is a great way to say, “I haven’t chosen to lean heavy in one specific way.” Either because they don’t want to, don’t care to, or don’t find a specific label self affirming. But I also realize that there would be combinations that would be best described as non-binary.\n[Edit 2] I have been corrected in that “thinking female or male” isn’t a thing. I clearly don’t understand gender very well, lol. And I was reminded that my language could imply that any of this is a decision. Not my intention at all.", ">\n\nYou believe in cis people and trans people, but you can't understand why someone would want to have some of each category?" ]

[ "/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nBeing non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. \nBeing non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.\nIntersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns.", ">\n\nCan you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn)", ">\n\nI'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.\nIn terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man.", ">\n\nI don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary", ">\n\nExpectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender.", ">\n\nBut why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with?", ">\n\nThe description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.\nI don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite.", ">\n\nThat seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it", ">\n\nDo you consider gender to be nothing more than expectations and stereotypes? If so, how is someone still their gender when they don't follow gender stereotypes, and if not, why is your issue with non-binary people, not with men and women, when all three of them have the same level of validity of existence, only western civilisation constructed two as 'the norm' longer ago from which we're not allowed to deviate? If a person can't be non-binary, we could just get rid of the descriptors of men and women, as well, given there's no real basis for any of them.", ">\n\nevery individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid\nfor some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of \"male\" or \"female.”", ">\n\nIf you don’t identify with traditional concepts of race are you a new race?", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? \n\nNon-binary doesn't mean \"half and half.\"", ">\n\nIf you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?\nMy question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)?", ">\n\nIf you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either.", ">\n\nOK, this is interesting, but also concerning.\nMy friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.\nBased on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. \nAt least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that.", ">\n\nNon-binary people can be happy, period. Just like all other trans people, they're not a one-glove-fits-all experience. Some trans people are happy with socially transitioning, some are happy with different pronouns being used, some are happy with some hormones, some are happy with a lifetime of hormones, some are happy with some surgical procedures, some are happy with many surgical procedures, some have surgical procedures that are a mix-up of the standard, some are fine just calling themselves what they are.\nJust like every other group of people, we're not identical, we don't all want or benefit from the same thing.\nLike, you sound like you think we all see cis people as the blueprint that we strive to become one day and that the horror factor is there not being cis people that your limited perception of non-binary people can emulate.", ">\n\nSure, but if I understand the idea correctly it sounds like the implication is that all people are non-binary by default and only become man or woman if they feel a strong tie to their gender. It seems a bit strange since pretty much all people have some innate physical tie to one gender, i.e. your genitals. If you feel like you got the wrong ones, we've decided what your mind says matters more than what your body says. But conventional ideas say that even if you can change it, cis is the default. I find it strange to imagine an indifference so strong you feel the need to make a change. \nAnd if I'm being honest I also don't completely understand how not identifying with either is different from a 50/50 split. Like, maybe you don't like pink or blue. Maybe you only like green. But so many gender roles are necessarily one or the other. Like, strength/aggression vs. passivity/gentleness. You can have one, or the other, or a mix of both. But it's hard to imagine neither.", ">\n\nI'm not saying all people are non-binary. I'm a binary trans man, that doesn't mean that I want or need to have every available medical and surgical procedure to emulate a cis man - I have no interest whatsoever to be like a cis man, I don't see them as the 'default' of men that I need to strive to be like. That you have an innate physical gender-related tie to your genitals doesn't mean that I have to have one, and it's incredibly selfish to insist that the world revolves around your self perception.\nCis is not the default. Cis people are statistically more likely to exist, but no one is the default.\nGender roles, or rather stereotypes which you named, are also completely irrelevant to gender. Men can be passive and gentle and women can be strong and aggressive, neither of their gender changes in any which way.", ">\n\nI think you aren't understanding what I mean by default. I don't mean that deviation from the default is necessarily bad, just that generally we assume everyone is cis until/unless they come out as otherwise. No one's coming out as cis. And though I am a cis man I feel no need to conform to every stereotype. You're a trans man because you feel a strong tie to masculinity, even if it's not to every aspect of traditional masculinity. But if you feel no strong feelings either way, I am curious about the motivation to come out as anything instead of just continuing to live your life expressing whatever combination of traditional masculine or traditionally feminine traits you want to.", ">\n\nI have zero ties to masculinity, I don't see masculinity as having any relation to being a man.\nI could physically not exist as a woman.\nAlso, no, I don't assume everyone is cis until told otherwise.", ">\n\nSo if I understand correctly you have no strong ties to gender but identify as woman because of your body being made into a man for medical reasons. I don't want to sound condescending because I think its safe to say you know more than I do about your own life than I do. But isn't that what I've been describing about how the state of your body (usually how you're born but in your case what was medically necessary) is your gender by default unless you feel a strong connection to the other gender?", ">\n\nHello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.\nI also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience.", ">\n\nΔ\nThanks for replying!\nApologies in advance for accidentally offending you, but your comment raises questions (ignore any and all questions you don't want to answer).\nThe fact that you experienced gender dysphoria is interesting (my sympathies). My nibling did not. Delta because I learned that non-binary can involve full-blown gender dysphoria.\nI saw my friend's son struggling with gender dysphoria from afar and it seemed absolutely devastating. The difference was that he knew he was male, no question. What did you think you were (if not male or female)? (terrible wording, but does that question make any sense)\nCan I ask, in general terms, what was your surgery targeting if not to switch genders?", ">\n\nOften times people with non binary may still be experiencing gender dysphoria but are not aware of it or don’t know how to place it because non-binary isn’t being exposed as much as binary is. So non-binary people are more likely to not be able to directly point to something as “gender dysphoria”", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I didn’t hear the terms ‘non-binary’ or ‘gender dysphoria’ until my mid twenties. Before that, I was just a depressed person who hated my body. There weren’t other words for it yet.", ">\n\nYou can also have repressed gender dysphoria just like you can have repression of any other mental health problems (for any transphobes reading this no being trans is not a mental illness, being trans is the treatment)", ">\n\nYou know I'm an old man and I went to pride parades back in the 80s but I've always felt like it's a personal issue. I'm glad and I support you because everyone should have the freedom to do what they will and be left alone about it, but it seems a bit over the top to me now. I don't see any need to tell everyone who I like in a romantic sense. I am who I am and if you know me and we become friends I'll tell you whatever about me. But to wear it on ones sleeve just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like telling me the good news about Jesus Christ, can we be buds for awhile before we get into all that? But I know I know, ok Boomer!", ">\n\nI think that part of the benefit to talking about it is the exposure for other people who might otherwise believe that they’re freaks without knowing others like them. As I saw recently, “there’s a benefit to knowing that you’re a perfectly normal zebra instead of thinking that you’re an incorrect horse.” \nIf you’re a fifty year old man who had to struggle to find out that they like men the way they’re “supposed” to like women and feel COMPLETELY alone in that fact, you can save someone else a lot of pain by standing up and showing pride in who you are, sexuality and all. There’s strength, charity, and community in using your own struggles to drown out some VERY loud bullies for the younger generations. The movement wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people who have tried for centuries to squash all hint of an entire identity.", ">\n\nnonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities", ">\n\nI will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.\nWhy not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?", ">\n\n\nI will never understand this\n\nis it important for you to understand anything more than 'my child will feel better if I do this small thing'?\nunderstanding isn't necessary if your goal is to be kind and supportive of your child.\nwould you prefer to push your child away simply because you don't understand their personal experience because it differs from your rigid view of the world?", ">\n\nOP has made clear multiple times that, outwardly, they love and support. They seem to fundamentally not understand, and are aiming to understand through this post. Seems like they’re already supporting in the ways you say", ">\n\n\nI draw the line at \"non-binary\". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what Non-binary means. It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category. You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender. \nMost of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female. That's the \"advantage\", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less.", ">\n\nCurious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason?", ">\n\nThey mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns.", ">\n\nI guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman?", ">\n\nThey aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).\nOr they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it.", ">\n\nDo people need to consent to be called they/them though? I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes…", ">\n\nNo, but there are usually specific situations when people list their pronouns.", ">\n\nBut legit… why? If you list he/him…. Am I being disrespectful to use they/them in some scenarios?", ">\n\nOh there are plenty of people who would pitch a fit if you used non-binary pronouns in a situation that someone might usually use a binary pronoun.", ">\n\nI’ll take your word for it, but it’s never happened to me.", ">\n\n\nIt seems like they just want attention.\n\nEven assuming that's true.... What makes you think literally every non-binary person in the world is doing it for the same reason?\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what non-binary means.\n\nWhat advantage does a non-binary person gain\n\nWhy are you assuming they are doing it only for gain? If a person feels like \"non-binary\" more closely reflects what the feel inside, why the fuck do you care?", ">\n\nHow can someone feel that they are non-binary?", ">\n\nIt’s different for ever single person but a common way is They don’t identify with male of female, they feel out of place and just being seen just “androgynous” like how people saw David Bowie for example is not how they want to be seen . The feel it goes deeper\nThan that. They then see all these cultures in history and people today who feel the same way they do. \nThere doesn’t need to be a concrete understanding just a common one with others to realize it’s a thing. Plenty of emotions and states of beings people can’t explain clearly with words unless you yourself have experienced it also. You can’t even really explain colors to people unless they have the ability to see colors themselves.", ">\n\nBut can’t feelings also be subjective and arbitrary; sometimes not even rooted in reality?", ">\n\nThese feelings of being outside the binary are well documented and studied throughout many cultures both causally and academically. \nWho are you to say it’s not grounded in reality? We know biologically sex isn’t binary intersex exists (and no not all intersex people are people with reproductive medical issues many are fully functioning healthy people ) so why can’t gender identity also be not binary?", ">\n\nWe also know that 99.9% of biological males identify with being male, the same stat goes for woman. Intersex people make up less than 0.7% of the population; it is a sexual anomaly - not evidence that a “third” sex exists. The majority of intersex people also identify with either being biologically male or female, not neither or both.", ">\n\nIntersex actually makes up between 1-2 percent with the most recent numbers. .7 percent is an older statistic when intersex was still struggling to be recognized by the medical industry and wasn’t being studied. \nRed hair is the same amount of genetic mutation rarity. Do you think red hair isn’t a valid hair color?\nAnd I never said intersex people have to identify as something outside the binary. I’m simply point out sex isn’t binary.", ">\n\nI am not entirely sure what you’re trying to argue?", ">\n\nYou say because of its rarity intersex isn’t a valid sex category outside the binary ones* correct? I’m saying red hair is a genetic mutation with the same amount of rarity. \nDo you think because if it’s rarity red hair should not be seen as a hair color and should instead be grouped with one of the other more prominent hair colors?\n(*intersex is more than just one thing it wouldn’t be just “third sex” there are at least 6 different sex chromosomes combinations when you include intersex )", ">\n\nBut the original discussion is about non-binary; not intersex. Most people who identify as being non-binary are not intersex", ">\n\nYou not thinking “non-binary” is a thing doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that it is, indeed, a thing. I understand not getting it, but your stance is either a personal aversion (which is hard to change with logic) or a statement of fact that isn’t opinion-based and isn’t objectively true. Non-binary has been a thing long before this era, with multiple cultures establishing a third gender or even more, including multiple Native-American cultures. \nThink of it this way: what other adjectives can you name that actually exist only on a binary? Temperature, light and dark, wet and dry, all spectrums. Even alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma. Viruses are both alive and not alive. \nPersonal characteristics like health, intelligence, morality, athleticism, sexuality, and development are also on spectrums. If we forced everyone to act like they were either 0 or 100% along every spectrum, it would force people into a stressful, dishonest position where they would be forced to deny a TON about themselves. We don’t force people to deny that they play either football or volleyball in order to do the other. \nAs we gain cultural awareness of gender being more than just biology, we’re understanding the complexity far better than we did, and understanding that asking some people to be either gender is to ask them to lie about parts of themselves. Anything complex has more than black and white. Gender does too. \nThat anxiety and depression that you mentioned in relation to gender identity also isn’t a black-white thing, so many people feel anxiety about not fitting EITHER gender, and have to reconcile it with their happiness. You understand that binary trans individuals will be happier and more comfortable if they identify as their chosen gender— what about nonbinary people telling you that somewhere in the middle makes them happiest? Does it have to be abject misery/suicidality for it to be worth improving? I’m not saying that you’re arguing that, but you get my point. Being non-binary hurts no one and has no issues other than people being like “well… it seems kinda weird.” I would ask you what reason you’d have for NOT thinking it exists despite any/all evidence to the contrary.", ">\n\n\nEven alive/dead is a spectrum— people can have no brain function but have a working heart, or the other way around. People can be in a coma.\n\nNo, it's not. People who have brain function are alive, people who don't have it are dead. It's as simple as that.", ">\n\nBut it’s not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t give someone the option to pull the plug. We wouldn’t have a coma severity scale. We wouldn’t debate personhood based on month of gestation or birth. \nAfter all, newly fertilized embryos don’t have brain function. Eight month old fetuses that haven’t been born DO have brain function. If it were that concrete, we would have to have a non-arbitrary measure of how much electrical activity constitutes fetal brain activity even before a brain fully develops. \nPlus, a legal definition isn’t a definition. We choose an point on the scale that we philosophically agree on/can live with, but we still have a TON of protocol for the gray area on either side that we wouldn’t for a person who seems more concretely dead or alive.", ">\n\nThat's a good argument.\nBut your examples do not have a lot to do with the life or death of a certain individual, but rather with their personhood. Which are different things.\nA fetus is alive, but are they a person worth protection? That's the debate, not whether the fetus is alive or not. Same can be said about people in a vegetative state. They're alive. But is their life without sentience worth protection? That's the question.\nLife/ death aren't debated in the legal field as much as they used to be in the medical one. But they've reached a consensus, which is binary and linked to brain function.\nWhen it comes to personhood, a legal and moral concept, it indeed does exist without a binary.\nThere are things that are binary and things that are not.\nIf binaries didn't exist, your CPU wouldn't be allowing you to use your device to comment this thread, lol.", ">\n\nBoth of these examples are faulty. For the life / death one, refer to the parent comment about the coma scale and fetal brain function. Brain function itself exists on a spectrum and is not binary. The definition you describe attempts to closely approximate this spectrum with a binary value but it fails for special cases. \nThe transistors in a CPU work similarly, closely approximating a spectrum with a binary value and failing for special cases. In RAM, small capacitors store bits, with a charged capacitor representing a 1 and an uncharged capacitor representing a 0. But what is the charge of a capcitor? Physically, it's the buildup of electrons on one plate and positive ions on the opposite plate. So there's at least one spectrum here, which is how full the capcitor is. It can exist in states besides empty and fully charged. \nBut there's even more edge cases when quantum mechanics are considered. A capacitor that should appear fully charged might appear empty or vice-versa on rare occasions due to the charge existing in a superposition. The capacitor might even occasionally store more potential energy than its classical capacitance.\nBits can be corrupted due to induced currents or random background radiation. To handle all these edge cases, your computer has error correcting codes to rectify bits that are observed as the incorrect binary value. These aren't perfect though, and random corruption is still an issue in all computing systems.\nTl;dr : I disagree that binaries exist in nature. All binary classifications are a simplification of a more complex underlying truth.", ">\n\nAt first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. \nThe heck is a nibling?", ">\n\nGender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times", ">\n\nIf you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?\nMore importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?", ">\n\nIs it so hard to believe that some people experience dysphoria and don't want to transition to a binary gender? Or that some people have deep misgivings about being identified within the binary paradigm? That some people really don't feel like either man or woman?\nIf some people feel secure in one aspect of what we take for granted as the human experience it seems there are always others who find it troubling or restrictive. I don't know why this would warrant your contempt or what exactly rolling your eyes is intended to accomplish.", ">\n\nCan you describe what it's like to not feel like a man or woman? There are no qualities inherent to being a man or woman from a gender perspective so I'm not sure how you can just say you are not either", ">\n\nI'm not NB so I'm not the best person to ask, but I know one AFAB NB person who agonizes over whether to bind or wear a bra or neither, they feel dysphoric being seen as a woman, but transitioning and living as a man didn't work for them either, and they feel most comfortable presenting as androgynous. \nI also know an AMAB NB person who was raised very Christian and felt completely smothered, restricted, and coerced by male gender norms. They are just much happier not identifying as male or female, and they like embracing classically feminine aspects of presentation from time to time with makeup and nail polish but sometimes it's just easier to put on jeans and a T-shirt and not make waves", ">\n\nYou say you are open to using they them if someones chromosomes are intersex but otherwise you aren’t. To me this is really bizarre. \nWhy do you respect binary trans people desire to be referred to by a pronoun that dosent match their chromosomes but don’t respect the same for non-binary?", ">\n\nI'll admit, I've never understood it either. How can you be nothing?\n1 can be 1, 2 can be 2, if a 1 wants to be a 2, or a 2 wants to be a 1, I can get that as well.\nUnless is gender dsyhporia I just don't understand it", ">\n\nJust gonna say your comparison wants me to point you towards quantum computing and qubits. Standard computing is binary, 1 or 0. Qubits can be 1, 0, neither or both.", ">\n\nNon-binary literally makes no sense to me and I’ve never heard a reason for being non-binary that isn’t seeped in gender stereotype and misogyny", ">\n\nMy parents are very accepting of gay people but don't get trans. I am trans but struggle with non-binary identities. I daresay the next generation are going to be weirded out by, idk, transhumanists or something. Even if we don't get something, we need to accept it and not repeat the same judgey shit as previous generations.", ">\n\nWell I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong.", ">\n\nBeing a gender fluid person, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why this concept is so difficult for so many people. I don't bring it up to anyone outside of friends because of how common this reaction is.\nPants A felt too tight, Pants B felt too loose, so I decided to wear neither. Sometimes I want to wear tighter pants and sometimes I want to wear looser pants. That's kind of it for me at least.", ">\n\nCan you explain your analogy? What is it about being either male or female that makes it so you dislike them? Why would it change over time?", ">\n\nI don't dislike either of them just sometimes I feel like wearing sweatpants and sometimes I feel like wearing skinny jeans. Sometimes I feel like eating a cheeseburger sometimes I feel like eating Chinese food. \nI guess for me being strictly seen as male or female would be like only having skinny jeans or only eating one type of food. There's nothing wrong with it, people stick to their favorite foods and cultural preferences all the time. I just don't lol\nMost things change over time. I used to want short hair but now I want long hair, I used to hate boybands but now I don't. Taste, preference, beliefs, values, etc change a lot over time to some degree for all of us.", ">\n\nNo one is a walking stereotype though. It's not like you are less of a man if you wear a skirt and makeup. Can you be more specific about how your life is different after identifying as gender fluid?\n(I'm genuinely trying to learn, I apologize if I offend)", ">\n\nWe're all trying to learn. I just figured it out recently tbh. It's hard to explain how you kind of just know when something fits you. The first time I kissed a girl I thought \"this is for me\" the first time I fell in love I thought \"this is what these songs are about\" when I was diagnosed correctly, when I found my friend group, when I realized my favorite color or flavor, it's like parts of me just clicked into place. Like when you organize your desk a certain way or paint something a certain color, it doesn't really change my life or anyone else's except that it makes me feel like mine?", ">\n\nThis is just true. Based.", ">\n\nNon-binary doesn't mean 50/50. \nIt means you don't identify firmly with either gender.", ">\n\nWe're all about giving new names to in betweens.\nA lion and a tiger, it's a liger\nDonkey and a horse, it's a mule\nA mandarin orange and a grapefruit, it's a tangelo\nWhen you get into in between areas that have unique traits that are separate from the other two, they're no longer classified as simply being one part this and one part that, they make a new thing. \nBinary literally means all this or all that. Ones and zeros. But we call ones and zeros whole numbers, we call .65 a decimal, 1/4 a fraction, and √1 irrational. All those numbers fall directly between zero and one but require other classifications to describe what exactly they are.\nThere are literally infinite numbers between 1 and 0.", ">\n\nI 100% agree with this, if you pick a side, even if that side isn’t what they were assigned at birth, I’ll respect that, but non binary I’ve never gotten. You will always lean more one way or another, and it’s very stereotypical to say that boys are one thing, girls are another, and if you don’t fit those stereotypes, your in the middle and shouldn’t claim either gender.", ">\n\nHi, non-binary amab here. First off let me acknowledge this conversation is hard to engage in emotionally for me. It's invalidating to have to justify my identity or the existence of my identity to an individual. But at one point I didn't understand non-binary or transness and didn't know i had options until someone explained to me that I infact do.\nGender is a social construct. And many cultures have defined gender differently than a binary.\nWhen using the term non-binary we are speaking of individuals who were likely a part of a culture that had a gender binary. For us that is man and woman. Depending on the culture those binary roles can be strict or very flexible meanings.\nFor myself I have never felt that the roles expected of a man fit me. Same goes for being a woman. At times I can be very masculine and at times and I can be very feminine. But even these words only have definition because we give it to them. In essence, I am so much more because I'm a whole ass human. And these words just do not resonate with me.\nMasculinity and femininity are also social constructs.\n\"Be a man\" or \"women, am I right\" have very specific meanings to the individual and although there may be some similarities between those saying these phrases. They're not ever going to be the same because it's based off the the male/female representation those individuals had to pull from.\nIf you feel like your gender matches you, or you lean heavily towards one gender or the other good for you. But for me and many of my non-binary peers, we had to start from scratch and its a language still defining itself. So we can have an identity for others to understand us too.", ">\n\nLuckily non-binary people don’t need your or any bodies approval to exist as they are.\nIt’s not for you to understand. Simply to be kind.\nI’m not saying your mean or bigoted but I think you’re too hung up on other peoples lives and identities.", ">\n\nI don t think asking people to explain it it s a bad thing? Why are y all so defensive this person was very respectful.", ">\n\nThey weren’t asking for an explanation. They were flat out denying non-binary identities. I wasn’t defensive but I was trying to point out that while someone might not understand something it also doesn’t mean that you NEED to. They weren’t fully mean but they also weren’t really kind.", ">\n\nWhy do you care? How does it affect you in any way whatsoever?", ">\n\nYou're wrong as all this idea of thinking you are part of the \"other gender\" is nonsense. Women and men don't have set ways of behaving, and therefore it doesn't make sense to think that you should be the other thing to be happy or something like that. That's why gender dysphoria is literally a mental disease.\nBut in all honesty I wouldn't give a damn about people being \"transgender\", no matter how utterly nonsensical this stuff is, if it was all about treating them in a way that they felt good. Instead, they want to use bathrooms and compete in Olympic sports against people who are physically weaker than them and have reasons to fear them, and even to retire early and avoid military duty.\nThat is, their nonsense and lack of touch with reality isn't something kept to themselves, but rather a lie that they try to impose over society just because they can't face the world as it is.", ">\n\nUnlike \"racism\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards some race and \"homophobia\" which means feeling hatred or disdain towards homossexual people, it seems that \"transphobic\" just means \"disagreeing with a certain way to define the words man and woman\", not having anything to do with some actual disrespect, being more akin to a Orwellian way of censoring ideas.", ">\n\n\nWhat are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?\n\nThat's not what nonbinary means", ">\n\nYou don't support trans people, you support palatability. Personally, your 'support' is as valuable to me as the comments of transphobes, which honestly are one and the same.", ">\n\nNo one cares, he supports the concept, not necessarily you specifically. Get over yourself and allow yourself to differentiate positions from each other. I think people with such vindictive and undifferentiated positions have experienced too much support and not enough ‘shut up’.", ">\n\nTheir 'support' claims to include me. They can shove their 'support' where the sun doesn't shine because it's worthless coming from someone who's blatantly transphobic.\nYou cannot claim to 'support' trans people while disregarding a large part of the trans community as 'fake' and 'non-existent', prioritizing it becoming easy to forget we're trans in society and spreading transphobic fearmongering about people pretending to be women to participate in sports.", ">\n\nWell you very much can do so. There are quite a few tans people who do not understand non-binary. You can indeed categorize and differentiate communities differently, not everyone considers non-binary a part of the trans community. If you do that’s fine but understand that that is your perspective/ opinion and not universal law.", ">\n\nThose trans people are transphobic. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.", ">\n\nNot really though, they just have ideological disagreement with what is currently the popular strand of transactivism, and this disagreement is being reframed as 'transphobic'.", ">\n\nOk, so you have a bit of a misconception, but while the whole half and half business does exist, that is bi-gender, not non-binary. Non-binary people are simply upset to have any sexual organs/physique. That's not to say they don't want a gender per say, they just don't feel like any existing gender properly describes them. Also, if you want a real brain bender, God is gender neutral.", ">\n\nYou don’t have to understand the feeling that non-binary people have. You just have to respect it!", ">\n\nIt is", ">\n\nAs others are saying, non-binary doesn’t mean that you’re right in the middle of the gender binary, but you fall outside of the gender binary. I’m a cis man so my knowledge is limited but I definitely know that much.", ">\n\n\nthe h-word is offensive/derogatory. \"Middlesex\" from here on out. Apologies\n\nSmall nitpick, \"intersex.\" Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat.", ">\n\nThis is always the argument I use when someone accepts binary trans people but not non-binary people.\nPremise: intersex people exist.\nQuestion: if an intersex person decides to embrace their status as intersex and consider themselves neither a man nor woman, is that valid? Or do they have to pick one?\nIf they are not allowed to do that: why? That seems completely absurd. Forcing intersex people to “pick a side” is a demonstrably harmful thing and to the extent that it happens it really should not.\nIf they are allowed to do that: what about if someone identified the exact same way but they were not intersex? Are they allowed to do that too?\nIf not: this means you are gatekeeping a gender identity behind biology which is the exact same argument as normal transphobes.\nIf so: that person is non-binary and you just agreed with them identifying like that.", ">\n\nBut you’re describing a biological condition. An intersex person could not fit into either, but the large majority of blue haired 16 year olds are biologically within the binary and still call themselves non-binary , aren’t they then appropriating intersex people?", ">\n\nH-word? Plz explain.", ">\n\nIt’s just another way of saying “look at me”. Just because someone isn’t a stereotype of their gender doesn’t mean they’re some in between gender or anything else. Are people who don’t fit a racial stereotype anything other than their race?", ">\n\nPeople answered your questions very well but I want to add an empathetic viewpoint. \nIt doesn't matter if you understand something or not. What happens if you accept their gender identity? Happy life and recognition for the individual. \nWhat happens if you resist to comply with your nephew's gender identity? Depression, gender dysphoria, or even suicide in many cases. It really doesn't fair to push a teenager's fragile mental wellness just because you don't understand something. \nJust move on. Life is already hard as it is. Who gives a fuck if you are well informed about gender and sex. And I'm writing this with a friendly manner. If you were honestly curious and eager to learn about it, you would read peer reviewed papers instead of reddit comments.", ">\n\nIf there can be 100 genders then why can't non-binary be the thing. Anyone can indentify with anything. It may not sound meaningful to you but it is for them.", ">\n\n\nI have known two separate sets of parents who have dealt with gender dysphoria in their children.\n\nHey, genuine question. Of the new children around you, what your observed rate of gender dysphoria ?\nI am still working on my beliefs around 'fashions' vs 'base rates'. This would help. Thanks.", ">\n\nwhats a nibbling? a child?", ">\n\nthis is reddit, my dude. what kind of comments did you expect?", ">\n\nwtf is a \"nibling\"? istg woke terms have gotten stupider since \"latinx\"", ">\n\nButch women and femboy are examples of non-binary genders imo", ">\n\nNot really. A feminine man isn't less of a man than a masculine man and a masculine woman isn't less of a woman than a feminine woman. They express themselves differently but their gender remains the same.", ">\n\nI didn't say that and I consider myself something of a butch", ">\n\nThey may not be doing it for attention. It's a logical conclusion of believing that 'woman' and 'man' each refer to a collection of gendered stereotypes, rather than being based on the material reality of one's sex. Want to rebel against such impositions without tearing down this whole belief system? 'Non-binary' solves this, or at least gives the illusion of such, on an individualistic level.", ">\n\nWhy do you need to worry at all about where to “draw the line”? Just let other people tell you what they are, call them what they want to be called and Don’t worry about it. You don’t need to ask them what their genitals look like (to find out if they are “hermaphrodite”) you don’t need to test their chromosomes (most of us have never tested our own), just let them tell you. Keep it simple.", ">\n\nSo, i think u more have an issue with ppl tbat insist on certain pronouns and/or make a big deal out of announcing they are non-binary than you do with the concept itself. Perhaps im just projecting cuz that's exactly how i feel haha! Its like ppl that try to cancel comedians for saying something racist.. they are a comedian, its basically implied that tbey arent being serious. But some people make a big fuss outta me saying i loved dave Chappelle's last special. I have an issue with attention-seeking in general..not the high level concept of what they are fighting for. Idk if any of this made sense but all in all, i think ur mostly (if not entirely) inline with how i think about this stuff. But wanted to point out that maybe u had more of an issue with people going outta their way to be loud/sensitive about tbis stuff than the stuff itself", ">\n\nI have several friends that are medical specialists in this field. I don’t fully understand it myself. But the way it was explained to me is that there is Gender, Sex, and sexuality. There are a myriad of genes that cause and/or affect each one of these aspects of the human being. In most cases, you wind up with a human whose gender, sex, and sexuality all line up as either male, or female. For example I think and feel like a male, I have male genitalia, and I am sexually attracted to people who present with female attributes. \nIn about 2-10% of ALL mammal populations, the genes and gene expressions don’t “line up” cohesively on one end of the spectrum or the other. These individuals could present as female, think like a male, but have both male AND female genitalia. Others can think they are female, have male genitalia, and are attracted to people who present with male attributes. They could also think like a female, present as a male, but are sexually attracted to females. And several other combinations I haven’t mentioned or thought about.\nSo the idea that non-binary doesn’t exist, is like saying you can’t mix paint. Or better yet, you can’t have red hair, brown eye brows, and a cleft chin. Gene expression is super complex and varied. And often present in unique and special ways. These people used to be considered special and were revered by their community as having some connection with the Devine.\nHeck, there’s a population in South America where they have a unique adolescents transition that delays when a child with male genitalia have those genitalia descend. So you have families that have 2 daughters until adolescents. When suddenly one of those “daughters” suddenly starts to show male genitalia. Sexuality, and gender expression is way more fascinating than our white, privileged, Christian culture has allowed us to know about.\n[Edited to add] personally, “non-binary” is a great way to say, “I haven’t chosen to lean heavy in one specific way.” Either because they don’t want to, don’t care to, or don’t find a specific label self affirming. But I also realize that there would be combinations that would be best described as non-binary.\n[Edit 2] I have been corrected in that “thinking female or male” isn’t a thing. I clearly don’t understand gender very well, lol. And I was reminded that my language could imply that any of this is a decision. Not my intention at all.", ">\n\nYou believe in cis people and trans people, but you can't understand why someone would want to have some of each category?", ">\n\nHow do you \"support\" something which doesn't exist?" ]

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