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innovation-hacking2

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[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.", ">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.", ">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.", ">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.", ">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.", ">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)", ">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.", ">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.", ">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)", ">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.", ">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.", ">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.", ">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)", ">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.", ">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”", ">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.", ">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.", ">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)", ">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.", ">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”", ">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.", ">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.", ">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.", ">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)", ">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.", ">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”", ">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.", ">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.", ">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.", ">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.", ">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)", ">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.", ">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”", ">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.", ">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.", ">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?", ">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.", ">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.", ">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)", ">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.", ">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”", ">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.", ">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.", ">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?", ">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot", ">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.", ">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.", ">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)", ">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.", ">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”", ">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.", ">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.", ">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?", ">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot", ">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.", ">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.", ">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.", ">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)", ">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.", ">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”", ">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.", ">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.", ">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?", ">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot", ">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.", ">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable", ">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.", ">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.", ">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)", ">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.", ">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”", ">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.", ">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.", ">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?", ">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot", ">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.", ">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable", ">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.", ">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.", ">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.", ">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)", ">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.", ">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”", ">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.", ">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.", ">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?", ">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot", ">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.", ">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable", ">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.", ">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required", ">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.", ">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.", ">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)", ">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.", ">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”", ">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.", ">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.", ">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?", ">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot", ">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.", ">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable", ">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.", ">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required", ">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do", ">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.", ">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.", ">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)", ">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.", ">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”", ">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.", ">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.", ">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?", ">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot", ">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.", ">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable", ">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.", ">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required", ">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do", ">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems", ">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.", ">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.", ">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)", ">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.", ">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”", ">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.", ">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.", ">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?", ">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot", ">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.", ">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable", ">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.", ">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required", ">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do", ">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems", ">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue", ">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.", ">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.", ">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)", ">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.", ">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”", ">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.", ">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.", ">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?", ">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot", ">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.", ">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable", ">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.", ">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required", ">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do", ">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems", ">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue", ">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.", ">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic." ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.", ">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.", ">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)", ">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.", ">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”", ">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.", ">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.", ">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?", ">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot", ">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.", ">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable", ">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.", ">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required", ">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do", ">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems", ">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue", ">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.", ">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.", ">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…" ]

[ "Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.", ">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.", ">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,", ">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.", ">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.", ">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.", ">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.", ">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.", ">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.", ">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.", ">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.", ">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.", ">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!", ">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.", ">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions", ">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.", ">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries", ">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?", ">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.", ">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…", ">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.", ">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?", ">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.", ">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.", ">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.", ">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.", ">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that", ">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.", ">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.", ">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.", ">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse", ">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.", ">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.", ">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.", ">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.", ">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.", ">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid", ">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.", ">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.", ">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.", ">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.", ">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch", ">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.", ">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.", ">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.", ">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"", ">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat", ">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.", ">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around", ">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.", ">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.", ">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.", ">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors", ">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”", ">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*", ">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"", ">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.", ">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.", ">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.", ">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.", ">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.", ">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.", ">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured", ">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.", ">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.", ">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.", ">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.", ">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?", ">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.", ">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.", ">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…", ">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.", ">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.", ">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning", ">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.", ">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.", ">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?", ">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.", ">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again", ">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.", ">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.", ">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.", ">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.", ">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.", ">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.", ">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)", ">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.", ">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”", ">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.", ">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.", ">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?", ">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot", ">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.", ">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable", ">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.", ">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required", ">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do", ">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems", ">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue", ">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.", ">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.", ">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…", ">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest." ]