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If the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties.
To argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly"
] |
>
Retraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows."
] |
>
I’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.
If you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired."
] |
>
He's right.
The only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision."
] |
>
I mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact."
] |
>
Start by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort."
] |
>
Make the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget."
] |
>
Because firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target.
Likewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.
The last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.
The purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary.
The change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded."
] |
>
Well said | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible."
] |
>
They don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said"
] |
>
Why do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker??? | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers."
] |
>
‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’
Because that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.
Less-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, "Why should you always reach for your gun?" | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???"
] |
>
Because when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.
Or put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.
And, as recent events have shown, they usually are. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\""
] |
>
If Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now? | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are."
] |
>
Exactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?"
] |
>
"Shoot them in the leg" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either."
] |
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EvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE! | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss."
] |
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40% of spouses: 🤞 | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!"
] |
>
Ehhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.
But if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞"
] |
>
There is only one way to shoot. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option."
] |
>
Bro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot."
] |
>
Because they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police."
] |
>
Less murder, more ice cream, Jack | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way."
] |
>
“They were coming right at me!” | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack"
] |
>
There certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”"
] |
>
If everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations."
] |
>
“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023 | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police."
] |
>
They should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023"
] |
>
Because shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem.
The problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home."
] |
>
Killology is just Fascism For Dummies. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force."
] |
>
Just require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!? | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies."
] |
>
Have to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?"
] |
>
While "retraining" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.
The only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now). | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed."
] |
>
Because once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now)."
] |
>
Reasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense."
] |
>
Even New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.
Cops need to be trained not to wave them round | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash."
] |
>
american cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round"
] |
>
Honestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate"
] |
>
Because there are no consequences. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us."
] |
>
I understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.
They just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences."
] |
>
Why should you shoot with deadly force?
Because you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much."
] |
>
Or just shoot to incapacitate if you can.
You actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock.
There are just too many instances of excessive use of force. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand."
] |
>
Any time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.
Cops just shouldn't have firearms on their person. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force."
] |
>
Cops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you.
Also Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us.
Cops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.
It’s a wild ride to follow. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person."
] |
>
because they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow."
] |
>
In This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not.
If they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American.
Everywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals.
You could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible.
I know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him.
I once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening.
The American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police."
] |
>
It’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them? | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out."
] |
>
Finally! | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?"
] |
>
How about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?
Letting someone bleed out is often a travesty. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!"
] |
>
I mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty."
] |
>
Finally. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory."
] |
>
They need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally."
] |
>
Deadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people."
] |
>
Umm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force"
] |
>
because of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot."
] |
>
This is literally what defund the police called for. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations"
] |
>
Also, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.
If they're dead, they can't testify.
The Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.
Joint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office
U.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for."
] |
>
“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter.
Retraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.
We need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate.
There is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary.
Bottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program"
] |
>
Im not pro cop by any means whatsoever but "shooting the leg" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed."
] |
>
Honestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do."
] |
>
I took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced."
] |
>
All current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get."
] |
>
If all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation."
] |
>
google daniel shaver | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them."
] |
>
that's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work.
why in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea? | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver"
] |
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We have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?"
] |
>
*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *
That doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together."
] |
>
This is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND! | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me."
] |
>
Police needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.
Anything short of all of this would be a tragedy. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!"
] |
>
I can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy."
] |
>
Cops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people? | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job."
] |
>
Bad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.
So many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for "they resisted" and I go back to Japanese tactics of "so what?" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist.
The other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?"
] |
>
POTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he? | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time."
] |
>
My heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.
--
they’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.
Put in other words, "they should be trained not to do what the situation requires"
The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”
Again in other words, "If you need to do something, you don't have to"
The pitch just doesn't make sense. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?"
] |
>
As soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense."
] |
>
He's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears."
] |
>
I am tired of this "it's a training issue" talking point.
It is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.
It is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.
"More training" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end."
] |
>
Doesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place? | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue."
] |
>
Shoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc.
What we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training.
In Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?"
] |
>
Also maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training."
] |
>
The problem with a lot of the cops out here now is that they are ex military and they look at citizens as the enemy. I personally think that being in a war zone should disqualify you from being a police officer | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training.",
">\n\nAlso maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool."
] |
>
You keep defending them and giving them money, Joe. You are part of the fucking problem. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training.",
">\n\nAlso maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool.",
">\n\nThe problem with a lot of the cops out here now is that they are ex military and they look at citizens as the enemy. I personally think that being in a war zone should disqualify you from being a police officer"
] |
>
Cops need a serious culture and training overhaul.
Unfortunately fighting back or reforming a 100 years of the "modern" police force will be almost impossible.
More training and less power is a start. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training.",
">\n\nAlso maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool.",
">\n\nThe problem with a lot of the cops out here now is that they are ex military and they look at citizens as the enemy. I personally think that being in a war zone should disqualify you from being a police officer",
">\n\nYou keep defending them and giving them money, Joe. You are part of the fucking problem."
] |
>
Police officers in the US don't deserve respect, they've lost it as a profession. Hopefully they will be overhauled and gain that respect back again as servents of the public, not executioners.
My little brother was so excited to become a police officer when he was younger, by the time George Floyd happened he was in highschool with a girlfriend of color, he has no interest in being an officer now. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training.",
">\n\nAlso maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool.",
">\n\nThe problem with a lot of the cops out here now is that they are ex military and they look at citizens as the enemy. I personally think that being in a war zone should disqualify you from being a police officer",
">\n\nYou keep defending them and giving them money, Joe. You are part of the fucking problem.",
">\n\nCops need a serious culture and training overhaul.\nUnfortunately fighting back or reforming a 100 years of the \"modern\" police force will be almost impossible. \nMore training and less power is a start."
] |
>
He's damn right!
Look in every damn western country.
And if you whine the criminals are armed in the U.S., ask yourself whose fault is this. Ask yourself who did put guns in their hands. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training.",
">\n\nAlso maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool.",
">\n\nThe problem with a lot of the cops out here now is that they are ex military and they look at citizens as the enemy. I personally think that being in a war zone should disqualify you from being a police officer",
">\n\nYou keep defending them and giving them money, Joe. You are part of the fucking problem.",
">\n\nCops need a serious culture and training overhaul.\nUnfortunately fighting back or reforming a 100 years of the \"modern\" police force will be almost impossible. \nMore training and less power is a start.",
">\n\nPolice officers in the US don't deserve respect, they've lost it as a profession. Hopefully they will be overhauled and gain that respect back again as servents of the public, not executioners.\nMy little brother was so excited to become a police officer when he was younger, by the time George Floyd happened he was in highschool with a girlfriend of color, he has no interest in being an officer now."
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Unfortunately the whole legal system is structured to facilitate this currently. Good luck with all that.
This is just bullshit posturing, frankly I am tired of it. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training.",
">\n\nAlso maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool.",
">\n\nThe problem with a lot of the cops out here now is that they are ex military and they look at citizens as the enemy. I personally think that being in a war zone should disqualify you from being a police officer",
">\n\nYou keep defending them and giving them money, Joe. You are part of the fucking problem.",
">\n\nCops need a serious culture and training overhaul.\nUnfortunately fighting back or reforming a 100 years of the \"modern\" police force will be almost impossible. \nMore training and less power is a start.",
">\n\nPolice officers in the US don't deserve respect, they've lost it as a profession. Hopefully they will be overhauled and gain that respect back again as servents of the public, not executioners.\nMy little brother was so excited to become a police officer when he was younger, by the time George Floyd happened he was in highschool with a girlfriend of color, he has no interest in being an officer now.",
">\n\nHe's damn right!\nLook in every damn western country.\nAnd if you whine the criminals are armed in the U.S., ask yourself whose fault is this. Ask yourself who did put guns in their hands."
] |
>
Always surprises me how the people who back cops don't understand that they're not supposed to use their guns unless their life is in danger. Instead of pull gun, shoot, ask questions later. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training.",
">\n\nAlso maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool.",
">\n\nThe problem with a lot of the cops out here now is that they are ex military and they look at citizens as the enemy. I personally think that being in a war zone should disqualify you from being a police officer",
">\n\nYou keep defending them and giving them money, Joe. You are part of the fucking problem.",
">\n\nCops need a serious culture and training overhaul.\nUnfortunately fighting back or reforming a 100 years of the \"modern\" police force will be almost impossible. \nMore training and less power is a start.",
">\n\nPolice officers in the US don't deserve respect, they've lost it as a profession. Hopefully they will be overhauled and gain that respect back again as servents of the public, not executioners.\nMy little brother was so excited to become a police officer when he was younger, by the time George Floyd happened he was in highschool with a girlfriend of color, he has no interest in being an officer now.",
">\n\nHe's damn right!\nLook in every damn western country.\nAnd if you whine the criminals are armed in the U.S., ask yourself whose fault is this. Ask yourself who did put guns in their hands.",
">\n\nUnfortunately the whole legal system is structured to facilitate this currently. Good luck with all that.\nThis is just bullshit posturing, frankly I am tired of it."
] |
>
Got pulled over the other day, cop chatted with me asked me where I worked etc. I work for a therapy office, I'm in college getting my therapy license and told him it required 5 years of schooling and 3000 supervised hours. He was SO SURPRISED.
He has a gun and can legally kill people, how much training did he go through?? | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training.",
">\n\nAlso maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool.",
">\n\nThe problem with a lot of the cops out here now is that they are ex military and they look at citizens as the enemy. I personally think that being in a war zone should disqualify you from being a police officer",
">\n\nYou keep defending them and giving them money, Joe. You are part of the fucking problem.",
">\n\nCops need a serious culture and training overhaul.\nUnfortunately fighting back or reforming a 100 years of the \"modern\" police force will be almost impossible. \nMore training and less power is a start.",
">\n\nPolice officers in the US don't deserve respect, they've lost it as a profession. Hopefully they will be overhauled and gain that respect back again as servents of the public, not executioners.\nMy little brother was so excited to become a police officer when he was younger, by the time George Floyd happened he was in highschool with a girlfriend of color, he has no interest in being an officer now.",
">\n\nHe's damn right!\nLook in every damn western country.\nAnd if you whine the criminals are armed in the U.S., ask yourself whose fault is this. Ask yourself who did put guns in their hands.",
">\n\nUnfortunately the whole legal system is structured to facilitate this currently. Good luck with all that.\nThis is just bullshit posturing, frankly I am tired of it.",
">\n\nAlways surprises me how the people who back cops don't understand that they're not supposed to use their guns unless their life is in danger. Instead of pull gun, shoot, ask questions later."
] |
>
Back in the mid 2000s I shot someone who had been shooting at law enforcement as they pursued him through a neighboring county. They had tried to stop him and arrest him on rape charges. Long story short he crashed into a strip mall avoiding spike strips before jumping out of the vehicle with a pistol. It was when he pointed the gun at me and then another officer that I fired.
One shot, through the web of his left hand with the bullet lodging into the base of his right thumb. The gun was immediately knocked out of his hands, and as I saw it tumbling to the ground and skid out of his reach I released tension on my trigger. He ended up passing out from shock in a pool of his own blood. Detectives latter learned he had tried to make an end run to a bar located in the strip mall he crashed into in order to shoot his girlfriend, the two guys she supposedly was their to hook up with, and whoever else got in his way. He also had a rifle in his vehicle and over a thousand rounds of ammunition (discovered later).
You would not believe the shit I got for not unloading my magazine into the guy. My fellow officers just couldn't wrap their heads around the fact I had a perfectly clean chance to "take a bad guy out" and didn't. Honestly, the entire experience, including the disgusting jealousy that went along with being the under 5% of law enforcement who actually shoot someone they meant to saw me leave that shitty profession shortly after. The luster entirely gone. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training.",
">\n\nAlso maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool.",
">\n\nThe problem with a lot of the cops out here now is that they are ex military and they look at citizens as the enemy. I personally think that being in a war zone should disqualify you from being a police officer",
">\n\nYou keep defending them and giving them money, Joe. You are part of the fucking problem.",
">\n\nCops need a serious culture and training overhaul.\nUnfortunately fighting back or reforming a 100 years of the \"modern\" police force will be almost impossible. \nMore training and less power is a start.",
">\n\nPolice officers in the US don't deserve respect, they've lost it as a profession. Hopefully they will be overhauled and gain that respect back again as servents of the public, not executioners.\nMy little brother was so excited to become a police officer when he was younger, by the time George Floyd happened he was in highschool with a girlfriend of color, he has no interest in being an officer now.",
">\n\nHe's damn right!\nLook in every damn western country.\nAnd if you whine the criminals are armed in the U.S., ask yourself whose fault is this. Ask yourself who did put guns in their hands.",
">\n\nUnfortunately the whole legal system is structured to facilitate this currently. Good luck with all that.\nThis is just bullshit posturing, frankly I am tired of it.",
">\n\nAlways surprises me how the people who back cops don't understand that they're not supposed to use their guns unless their life is in danger. Instead of pull gun, shoot, ask questions later.",
">\n\nGot pulled over the other day, cop chatted with me asked me where I worked etc. I work for a therapy office, I'm in college getting my therapy license and told him it required 5 years of schooling and 3000 supervised hours. He was SO SURPRISED. \nHe has a gun and can legally kill people, how much training did he go through??"
] |
>
Step 1 - de-program the "everyone wants to kill you" mentality that the police academy brainwashed them with | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training.",
">\n\nAlso maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool.",
">\n\nThe problem with a lot of the cops out here now is that they are ex military and they look at citizens as the enemy. I personally think that being in a war zone should disqualify you from being a police officer",
">\n\nYou keep defending them and giving them money, Joe. You are part of the fucking problem.",
">\n\nCops need a serious culture and training overhaul.\nUnfortunately fighting back or reforming a 100 years of the \"modern\" police force will be almost impossible. \nMore training and less power is a start.",
">\n\nPolice officers in the US don't deserve respect, they've lost it as a profession. Hopefully they will be overhauled and gain that respect back again as servents of the public, not executioners.\nMy little brother was so excited to become a police officer when he was younger, by the time George Floyd happened he was in highschool with a girlfriend of color, he has no interest in being an officer now.",
">\n\nHe's damn right!\nLook in every damn western country.\nAnd if you whine the criminals are armed in the U.S., ask yourself whose fault is this. Ask yourself who did put guns in their hands.",
">\n\nUnfortunately the whole legal system is structured to facilitate this currently. Good luck with all that.\nThis is just bullshit posturing, frankly I am tired of it.",
">\n\nAlways surprises me how the people who back cops don't understand that they're not supposed to use their guns unless their life is in danger. Instead of pull gun, shoot, ask questions later.",
">\n\nGot pulled over the other day, cop chatted with me asked me where I worked etc. I work for a therapy office, I'm in college getting my therapy license and told him it required 5 years of schooling and 3000 supervised hours. He was SO SURPRISED. \nHe has a gun and can legally kill people, how much training did he go through??",
">\n\nBack in the mid 2000s I shot someone who had been shooting at law enforcement as they pursued him through a neighboring county. They had tried to stop him and arrest him on rape charges. Long story short he crashed into a strip mall avoiding spike strips before jumping out of the vehicle with a pistol. It was when he pointed the gun at me and then another officer that I fired. \nOne shot, through the web of his left hand with the bullet lodging into the base of his right thumb. The gun was immediately knocked out of his hands, and as I saw it tumbling to the ground and skid out of his reach I released tension on my trigger. He ended up passing out from shock in a pool of his own blood. Detectives latter learned he had tried to make an end run to a bar located in the strip mall he crashed into in order to shoot his girlfriend, the two guys she supposedly was their to hook up with, and whoever else got in his way. He also had a rifle in his vehicle and over a thousand rounds of ammunition (discovered later).\nYou would not believe the shit I got for not unloading my magazine into the guy. My fellow officers just couldn't wrap their heads around the fact I had a perfectly clean chance to \"take a bad guy out\" and didn't. Honestly, the entire experience, including the disgusting jealousy that went along with being the under 5% of law enforcement who actually shoot someone they meant to saw me leave that shitty profession shortly after. The luster entirely gone."
] |
>
True that! And why has this not even been an issue over the last several years of shootings?
Many people can understand why cops might justifiably shoot. But these guys are not just shooting. They are fusillading often-unarmed people with 16 (Chicago) to 122 (Cleveland) rounds! Even in the most probing inquiries, I've never heard the question 'why so, so many rounds?' | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training.",
">\n\nAlso maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool.",
">\n\nThe problem with a lot of the cops out here now is that they are ex military and they look at citizens as the enemy. I personally think that being in a war zone should disqualify you from being a police officer",
">\n\nYou keep defending them and giving them money, Joe. You are part of the fucking problem.",
">\n\nCops need a serious culture and training overhaul.\nUnfortunately fighting back or reforming a 100 years of the \"modern\" police force will be almost impossible. \nMore training and less power is a start.",
">\n\nPolice officers in the US don't deserve respect, they've lost it as a profession. Hopefully they will be overhauled and gain that respect back again as servents of the public, not executioners.\nMy little brother was so excited to become a police officer when he was younger, by the time George Floyd happened he was in highschool with a girlfriend of color, he has no interest in being an officer now.",
">\n\nHe's damn right!\nLook in every damn western country.\nAnd if you whine the criminals are armed in the U.S., ask yourself whose fault is this. Ask yourself who did put guns in their hands.",
">\n\nUnfortunately the whole legal system is structured to facilitate this currently. Good luck with all that.\nThis is just bullshit posturing, frankly I am tired of it.",
">\n\nAlways surprises me how the people who back cops don't understand that they're not supposed to use their guns unless their life is in danger. Instead of pull gun, shoot, ask questions later.",
">\n\nGot pulled over the other day, cop chatted with me asked me where I worked etc. I work for a therapy office, I'm in college getting my therapy license and told him it required 5 years of schooling and 3000 supervised hours. He was SO SURPRISED. \nHe has a gun and can legally kill people, how much training did he go through??",
">\n\nBack in the mid 2000s I shot someone who had been shooting at law enforcement as they pursued him through a neighboring county. They had tried to stop him and arrest him on rape charges. Long story short he crashed into a strip mall avoiding spike strips before jumping out of the vehicle with a pistol. It was when he pointed the gun at me and then another officer that I fired. \nOne shot, through the web of his left hand with the bullet lodging into the base of his right thumb. The gun was immediately knocked out of his hands, and as I saw it tumbling to the ground and skid out of his reach I released tension on my trigger. He ended up passing out from shock in a pool of his own blood. Detectives latter learned he had tried to make an end run to a bar located in the strip mall he crashed into in order to shoot his girlfriend, the two guys she supposedly was their to hook up with, and whoever else got in his way. He also had a rifle in his vehicle and over a thousand rounds of ammunition (discovered later).\nYou would not believe the shit I got for not unloading my magazine into the guy. My fellow officers just couldn't wrap their heads around the fact I had a perfectly clean chance to \"take a bad guy out\" and didn't. Honestly, the entire experience, including the disgusting jealousy that went along with being the under 5% of law enforcement who actually shoot someone they meant to saw me leave that shitty profession shortly after. The luster entirely gone.",
">\n\nStep 1 - de-program the \"everyone wants to kill you\" mentality that the police academy brainwashed them with"
] |
>
If I had to go to school(traing) for two years to become a basic Chef, four full years to be a management level Chef; why do the police get the authority to shoot people with as little as six weeks training?!? | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training.",
">\n\nAlso maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool.",
">\n\nThe problem with a lot of the cops out here now is that they are ex military and they look at citizens as the enemy. I personally think that being in a war zone should disqualify you from being a police officer",
">\n\nYou keep defending them and giving them money, Joe. You are part of the fucking problem.",
">\n\nCops need a serious culture and training overhaul.\nUnfortunately fighting back or reforming a 100 years of the \"modern\" police force will be almost impossible. \nMore training and less power is a start.",
">\n\nPolice officers in the US don't deserve respect, they've lost it as a profession. Hopefully they will be overhauled and gain that respect back again as servents of the public, not executioners.\nMy little brother was so excited to become a police officer when he was younger, by the time George Floyd happened he was in highschool with a girlfriend of color, he has no interest in being an officer now.",
">\n\nHe's damn right!\nLook in every damn western country.\nAnd if you whine the criminals are armed in the U.S., ask yourself whose fault is this. Ask yourself who did put guns in their hands.",
">\n\nUnfortunately the whole legal system is structured to facilitate this currently. Good luck with all that.\nThis is just bullshit posturing, frankly I am tired of it.",
">\n\nAlways surprises me how the people who back cops don't understand that they're not supposed to use their guns unless their life is in danger. Instead of pull gun, shoot, ask questions later.",
">\n\nGot pulled over the other day, cop chatted with me asked me where I worked etc. I work for a therapy office, I'm in college getting my therapy license and told him it required 5 years of schooling and 3000 supervised hours. He was SO SURPRISED. \nHe has a gun and can legally kill people, how much training did he go through??",
">\n\nBack in the mid 2000s I shot someone who had been shooting at law enforcement as they pursued him through a neighboring county. They had tried to stop him and arrest him on rape charges. Long story short he crashed into a strip mall avoiding spike strips before jumping out of the vehicle with a pistol. It was when he pointed the gun at me and then another officer that I fired. \nOne shot, through the web of his left hand with the bullet lodging into the base of his right thumb. The gun was immediately knocked out of his hands, and as I saw it tumbling to the ground and skid out of his reach I released tension on my trigger. He ended up passing out from shock in a pool of his own blood. Detectives latter learned he had tried to make an end run to a bar located in the strip mall he crashed into in order to shoot his girlfriend, the two guys she supposedly was their to hook up with, and whoever else got in his way. He also had a rifle in his vehicle and over a thousand rounds of ammunition (discovered later).\nYou would not believe the shit I got for not unloading my magazine into the guy. My fellow officers just couldn't wrap their heads around the fact I had a perfectly clean chance to \"take a bad guy out\" and didn't. Honestly, the entire experience, including the disgusting jealousy that went along with being the under 5% of law enforcement who actually shoot someone they meant to saw me leave that shitty profession shortly after. The luster entirely gone.",
">\n\nStep 1 - de-program the \"everyone wants to kill you\" mentality that the police academy brainwashed them with",
">\n\nTrue that! And why has this not even been an issue over the last several years of shootings?\nMany people can understand why cops might justifiably shoot. But these guys are not just shooting. They are fusillading often-unarmed people with 16 (Chicago) to 122 (Cleveland) rounds! Even in the most probing inquiries, I've never heard the question 'why so, so many rounds?'"
] |
>
If youre not shooting with lethal intent, the gun wasnt necessary in the first place.
If a non lethal shot can stop them, non lethal options would have stopped them.
This is what the military teaches, so idk why people think lethal force is the result of “military style” police | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training.",
">\n\nAlso maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool.",
">\n\nThe problem with a lot of the cops out here now is that they are ex military and they look at citizens as the enemy. I personally think that being in a war zone should disqualify you from being a police officer",
">\n\nYou keep defending them and giving them money, Joe. You are part of the fucking problem.",
">\n\nCops need a serious culture and training overhaul.\nUnfortunately fighting back or reforming a 100 years of the \"modern\" police force will be almost impossible. \nMore training and less power is a start.",
">\n\nPolice officers in the US don't deserve respect, they've lost it as a profession. Hopefully they will be overhauled and gain that respect back again as servents of the public, not executioners.\nMy little brother was so excited to become a police officer when he was younger, by the time George Floyd happened he was in highschool with a girlfriend of color, he has no interest in being an officer now.",
">\n\nHe's damn right!\nLook in every damn western country.\nAnd if you whine the criminals are armed in the U.S., ask yourself whose fault is this. Ask yourself who did put guns in their hands.",
">\n\nUnfortunately the whole legal system is structured to facilitate this currently. Good luck with all that.\nThis is just bullshit posturing, frankly I am tired of it.",
">\n\nAlways surprises me how the people who back cops don't understand that they're not supposed to use their guns unless their life is in danger. Instead of pull gun, shoot, ask questions later.",
">\n\nGot pulled over the other day, cop chatted with me asked me where I worked etc. I work for a therapy office, I'm in college getting my therapy license and told him it required 5 years of schooling and 3000 supervised hours. He was SO SURPRISED. \nHe has a gun and can legally kill people, how much training did he go through??",
">\n\nBack in the mid 2000s I shot someone who had been shooting at law enforcement as they pursued him through a neighboring county. They had tried to stop him and arrest him on rape charges. Long story short he crashed into a strip mall avoiding spike strips before jumping out of the vehicle with a pistol. It was when he pointed the gun at me and then another officer that I fired. \nOne shot, through the web of his left hand with the bullet lodging into the base of his right thumb. The gun was immediately knocked out of his hands, and as I saw it tumbling to the ground and skid out of his reach I released tension on my trigger. He ended up passing out from shock in a pool of his own blood. Detectives latter learned he had tried to make an end run to a bar located in the strip mall he crashed into in order to shoot his girlfriend, the two guys she supposedly was their to hook up with, and whoever else got in his way. He also had a rifle in his vehicle and over a thousand rounds of ammunition (discovered later).\nYou would not believe the shit I got for not unloading my magazine into the guy. My fellow officers just couldn't wrap their heads around the fact I had a perfectly clean chance to \"take a bad guy out\" and didn't. Honestly, the entire experience, including the disgusting jealousy that went along with being the under 5% of law enforcement who actually shoot someone they meant to saw me leave that shitty profession shortly after. The luster entirely gone.",
">\n\nStep 1 - de-program the \"everyone wants to kill you\" mentality that the police academy brainwashed them with",
">\n\nTrue that! And why has this not even been an issue over the last several years of shootings?\nMany people can understand why cops might justifiably shoot. But these guys are not just shooting. They are fusillading often-unarmed people with 16 (Chicago) to 122 (Cleveland) rounds! Even in the most probing inquiries, I've never heard the question 'why so, so many rounds?'",
">\n\nIf I had to go to school(traing) for two years to become a basic Chef, four full years to be a management level Chef; why do the police get the authority to shoot people with as little as six weeks training?!?"
] |
>
Because if they survive, they can sue. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training.",
">\n\nAlso maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool.",
">\n\nThe problem with a lot of the cops out here now is that they are ex military and they look at citizens as the enemy. I personally think that being in a war zone should disqualify you from being a police officer",
">\n\nYou keep defending them and giving them money, Joe. You are part of the fucking problem.",
">\n\nCops need a serious culture and training overhaul.\nUnfortunately fighting back or reforming a 100 years of the \"modern\" police force will be almost impossible. \nMore training and less power is a start.",
">\n\nPolice officers in the US don't deserve respect, they've lost it as a profession. Hopefully they will be overhauled and gain that respect back again as servents of the public, not executioners.\nMy little brother was so excited to become a police officer when he was younger, by the time George Floyd happened he was in highschool with a girlfriend of color, he has no interest in being an officer now.",
">\n\nHe's damn right!\nLook in every damn western country.\nAnd if you whine the criminals are armed in the U.S., ask yourself whose fault is this. Ask yourself who did put guns in their hands.",
">\n\nUnfortunately the whole legal system is structured to facilitate this currently. Good luck with all that.\nThis is just bullshit posturing, frankly I am tired of it.",
">\n\nAlways surprises me how the people who back cops don't understand that they're not supposed to use their guns unless their life is in danger. Instead of pull gun, shoot, ask questions later.",
">\n\nGot pulled over the other day, cop chatted with me asked me where I worked etc. I work for a therapy office, I'm in college getting my therapy license and told him it required 5 years of schooling and 3000 supervised hours. He was SO SURPRISED. \nHe has a gun and can legally kill people, how much training did he go through??",
">\n\nBack in the mid 2000s I shot someone who had been shooting at law enforcement as they pursued him through a neighboring county. They had tried to stop him and arrest him on rape charges. Long story short he crashed into a strip mall avoiding spike strips before jumping out of the vehicle with a pistol. It was when he pointed the gun at me and then another officer that I fired. \nOne shot, through the web of his left hand with the bullet lodging into the base of his right thumb. The gun was immediately knocked out of his hands, and as I saw it tumbling to the ground and skid out of his reach I released tension on my trigger. He ended up passing out from shock in a pool of his own blood. Detectives latter learned he had tried to make an end run to a bar located in the strip mall he crashed into in order to shoot his girlfriend, the two guys she supposedly was their to hook up with, and whoever else got in his way. He also had a rifle in his vehicle and over a thousand rounds of ammunition (discovered later).\nYou would not believe the shit I got for not unloading my magazine into the guy. My fellow officers just couldn't wrap their heads around the fact I had a perfectly clean chance to \"take a bad guy out\" and didn't. Honestly, the entire experience, including the disgusting jealousy that went along with being the under 5% of law enforcement who actually shoot someone they meant to saw me leave that shitty profession shortly after. The luster entirely gone.",
">\n\nStep 1 - de-program the \"everyone wants to kill you\" mentality that the police academy brainwashed them with",
">\n\nTrue that! And why has this not even been an issue over the last several years of shootings?\nMany people can understand why cops might justifiably shoot. But these guys are not just shooting. They are fusillading often-unarmed people with 16 (Chicago) to 122 (Cleveland) rounds! Even in the most probing inquiries, I've never heard the question 'why so, so many rounds?'",
">\n\nIf I had to go to school(traing) for two years to become a basic Chef, four full years to be a management level Chef; why do the police get the authority to shoot people with as little as six weeks training?!?",
">\n\nIf youre not shooting with lethal intent, the gun wasnt necessary in the first place. \nIf a non lethal shot can stop them, non lethal options would have stopped them.\nThis is what the military teaches, so idk why people think lethal force is the result of “military style” police"
] |
>
Maybe not the point of the quote, but there should never be the thought of "shoot to wound." If you're going to make the decision to fire your weapon at another human being, it should be with the appropriately weighted result of taking a life. There is no half-measure. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training.",
">\n\nAlso maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool.",
">\n\nThe problem with a lot of the cops out here now is that they are ex military and they look at citizens as the enemy. I personally think that being in a war zone should disqualify you from being a police officer",
">\n\nYou keep defending them and giving them money, Joe. You are part of the fucking problem.",
">\n\nCops need a serious culture and training overhaul.\nUnfortunately fighting back or reforming a 100 years of the \"modern\" police force will be almost impossible. \nMore training and less power is a start.",
">\n\nPolice officers in the US don't deserve respect, they've lost it as a profession. Hopefully they will be overhauled and gain that respect back again as servents of the public, not executioners.\nMy little brother was so excited to become a police officer when he was younger, by the time George Floyd happened he was in highschool with a girlfriend of color, he has no interest in being an officer now.",
">\n\nHe's damn right!\nLook in every damn western country.\nAnd if you whine the criminals are armed in the U.S., ask yourself whose fault is this. Ask yourself who did put guns in their hands.",
">\n\nUnfortunately the whole legal system is structured to facilitate this currently. Good luck with all that.\nThis is just bullshit posturing, frankly I am tired of it.",
">\n\nAlways surprises me how the people who back cops don't understand that they're not supposed to use their guns unless their life is in danger. Instead of pull gun, shoot, ask questions later.",
">\n\nGot pulled over the other day, cop chatted with me asked me where I worked etc. I work for a therapy office, I'm in college getting my therapy license and told him it required 5 years of schooling and 3000 supervised hours. He was SO SURPRISED. \nHe has a gun and can legally kill people, how much training did he go through??",
">\n\nBack in the mid 2000s I shot someone who had been shooting at law enforcement as they pursued him through a neighboring county. They had tried to stop him and arrest him on rape charges. Long story short he crashed into a strip mall avoiding spike strips before jumping out of the vehicle with a pistol. It was when he pointed the gun at me and then another officer that I fired. \nOne shot, through the web of his left hand with the bullet lodging into the base of his right thumb. The gun was immediately knocked out of his hands, and as I saw it tumbling to the ground and skid out of his reach I released tension on my trigger. He ended up passing out from shock in a pool of his own blood. Detectives latter learned he had tried to make an end run to a bar located in the strip mall he crashed into in order to shoot his girlfriend, the two guys she supposedly was their to hook up with, and whoever else got in his way. He also had a rifle in his vehicle and over a thousand rounds of ammunition (discovered later).\nYou would not believe the shit I got for not unloading my magazine into the guy. My fellow officers just couldn't wrap their heads around the fact I had a perfectly clean chance to \"take a bad guy out\" and didn't. Honestly, the entire experience, including the disgusting jealousy that went along with being the under 5% of law enforcement who actually shoot someone they meant to saw me leave that shitty profession shortly after. The luster entirely gone.",
">\n\nStep 1 - de-program the \"everyone wants to kill you\" mentality that the police academy brainwashed them with",
">\n\nTrue that! And why has this not even been an issue over the last several years of shootings?\nMany people can understand why cops might justifiably shoot. But these guys are not just shooting. They are fusillading often-unarmed people with 16 (Chicago) to 122 (Cleveland) rounds! Even in the most probing inquiries, I've never heard the question 'why so, so many rounds?'",
">\n\nIf I had to go to school(traing) for two years to become a basic Chef, four full years to be a management level Chef; why do the police get the authority to shoot people with as little as six weeks training?!?",
">\n\nIf youre not shooting with lethal intent, the gun wasnt necessary in the first place. \nIf a non lethal shot can stop them, non lethal options would have stopped them.\nThis is what the military teaches, so idk why people think lethal force is the result of “military style” police",
">\n\nBecause if they survive, they can sue."
] |
>
They should at minimum have to earn a 2 year degree on law and ethics. It’s absolutely ridiculous anyone with a GED &/or HS graduate can just join any police department. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training.",
">\n\nAlso maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool.",
">\n\nThe problem with a lot of the cops out here now is that they are ex military and they look at citizens as the enemy. I personally think that being in a war zone should disqualify you from being a police officer",
">\n\nYou keep defending them and giving them money, Joe. You are part of the fucking problem.",
">\n\nCops need a serious culture and training overhaul.\nUnfortunately fighting back or reforming a 100 years of the \"modern\" police force will be almost impossible. \nMore training and less power is a start.",
">\n\nPolice officers in the US don't deserve respect, they've lost it as a profession. Hopefully they will be overhauled and gain that respect back again as servents of the public, not executioners.\nMy little brother was so excited to become a police officer when he was younger, by the time George Floyd happened he was in highschool with a girlfriend of color, he has no interest in being an officer now.",
">\n\nHe's damn right!\nLook in every damn western country.\nAnd if you whine the criminals are armed in the U.S., ask yourself whose fault is this. Ask yourself who did put guns in their hands.",
">\n\nUnfortunately the whole legal system is structured to facilitate this currently. Good luck with all that.\nThis is just bullshit posturing, frankly I am tired of it.",
">\n\nAlways surprises me how the people who back cops don't understand that they're not supposed to use their guns unless their life is in danger. Instead of pull gun, shoot, ask questions later.",
">\n\nGot pulled over the other day, cop chatted with me asked me where I worked etc. I work for a therapy office, I'm in college getting my therapy license and told him it required 5 years of schooling and 3000 supervised hours. He was SO SURPRISED. \nHe has a gun and can legally kill people, how much training did he go through??",
">\n\nBack in the mid 2000s I shot someone who had been shooting at law enforcement as they pursued him through a neighboring county. They had tried to stop him and arrest him on rape charges. Long story short he crashed into a strip mall avoiding spike strips before jumping out of the vehicle with a pistol. It was when he pointed the gun at me and then another officer that I fired. \nOne shot, through the web of his left hand with the bullet lodging into the base of his right thumb. The gun was immediately knocked out of his hands, and as I saw it tumbling to the ground and skid out of his reach I released tension on my trigger. He ended up passing out from shock in a pool of his own blood. Detectives latter learned he had tried to make an end run to a bar located in the strip mall he crashed into in order to shoot his girlfriend, the two guys she supposedly was their to hook up with, and whoever else got in his way. He also had a rifle in his vehicle and over a thousand rounds of ammunition (discovered later).\nYou would not believe the shit I got for not unloading my magazine into the guy. My fellow officers just couldn't wrap their heads around the fact I had a perfectly clean chance to \"take a bad guy out\" and didn't. Honestly, the entire experience, including the disgusting jealousy that went along with being the under 5% of law enforcement who actually shoot someone they meant to saw me leave that shitty profession shortly after. The luster entirely gone.",
">\n\nStep 1 - de-program the \"everyone wants to kill you\" mentality that the police academy brainwashed them with",
">\n\nTrue that! And why has this not even been an issue over the last several years of shootings?\nMany people can understand why cops might justifiably shoot. But these guys are not just shooting. They are fusillading often-unarmed people with 16 (Chicago) to 122 (Cleveland) rounds! Even in the most probing inquiries, I've never heard the question 'why so, so many rounds?'",
">\n\nIf I had to go to school(traing) for two years to become a basic Chef, four full years to be a management level Chef; why do the police get the authority to shoot people with as little as six weeks training?!?",
">\n\nIf youre not shooting with lethal intent, the gun wasnt necessary in the first place. \nIf a non lethal shot can stop them, non lethal options would have stopped them.\nThis is what the military teaches, so idk why people think lethal force is the result of “military style” police",
">\n\nBecause if they survive, they can sue.",
">\n\nMaybe not the point of the quote, but there should never be the thought of \"shoot to wound.\" If you're going to make the decision to fire your weapon at another human being, it should be with the appropriately weighted result of taking a life. There is no half-measure."
] |
>
The first step to making cops better is to attract better people. I think policing should be a high-wage, bachelor’s degree required job. There should be a specific curriculum, along with mandatory insurance for liability and removal of immunity. If being an officer needs to be something that people want to be, than maybe the right people will take on the role | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training.",
">\n\nAlso maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool.",
">\n\nThe problem with a lot of the cops out here now is that they are ex military and they look at citizens as the enemy. I personally think that being in a war zone should disqualify you from being a police officer",
">\n\nYou keep defending them and giving them money, Joe. You are part of the fucking problem.",
">\n\nCops need a serious culture and training overhaul.\nUnfortunately fighting back or reforming a 100 years of the \"modern\" police force will be almost impossible. \nMore training and less power is a start.",
">\n\nPolice officers in the US don't deserve respect, they've lost it as a profession. Hopefully they will be overhauled and gain that respect back again as servents of the public, not executioners.\nMy little brother was so excited to become a police officer when he was younger, by the time George Floyd happened he was in highschool with a girlfriend of color, he has no interest in being an officer now.",
">\n\nHe's damn right!\nLook in every damn western country.\nAnd if you whine the criminals are armed in the U.S., ask yourself whose fault is this. Ask yourself who did put guns in their hands.",
">\n\nUnfortunately the whole legal system is structured to facilitate this currently. Good luck with all that.\nThis is just bullshit posturing, frankly I am tired of it.",
">\n\nAlways surprises me how the people who back cops don't understand that they're not supposed to use their guns unless their life is in danger. Instead of pull gun, shoot, ask questions later.",
">\n\nGot pulled over the other day, cop chatted with me asked me where I worked etc. I work for a therapy office, I'm in college getting my therapy license and told him it required 5 years of schooling and 3000 supervised hours. He was SO SURPRISED. \nHe has a gun and can legally kill people, how much training did he go through??",
">\n\nBack in the mid 2000s I shot someone who had been shooting at law enforcement as they pursued him through a neighboring county. They had tried to stop him and arrest him on rape charges. Long story short he crashed into a strip mall avoiding spike strips before jumping out of the vehicle with a pistol. It was when he pointed the gun at me and then another officer that I fired. \nOne shot, through the web of his left hand with the bullet lodging into the base of his right thumb. The gun was immediately knocked out of his hands, and as I saw it tumbling to the ground and skid out of his reach I released tension on my trigger. He ended up passing out from shock in a pool of his own blood. Detectives latter learned he had tried to make an end run to a bar located in the strip mall he crashed into in order to shoot his girlfriend, the two guys she supposedly was their to hook up with, and whoever else got in his way. He also had a rifle in his vehicle and over a thousand rounds of ammunition (discovered later).\nYou would not believe the shit I got for not unloading my magazine into the guy. My fellow officers just couldn't wrap their heads around the fact I had a perfectly clean chance to \"take a bad guy out\" and didn't. Honestly, the entire experience, including the disgusting jealousy that went along with being the under 5% of law enforcement who actually shoot someone they meant to saw me leave that shitty profession shortly after. The luster entirely gone.",
">\n\nStep 1 - de-program the \"everyone wants to kill you\" mentality that the police academy brainwashed them with",
">\n\nTrue that! And why has this not even been an issue over the last several years of shootings?\nMany people can understand why cops might justifiably shoot. But these guys are not just shooting. They are fusillading often-unarmed people with 16 (Chicago) to 122 (Cleveland) rounds! Even in the most probing inquiries, I've never heard the question 'why so, so many rounds?'",
">\n\nIf I had to go to school(traing) for two years to become a basic Chef, four full years to be a management level Chef; why do the police get the authority to shoot people with as little as six weeks training?!?",
">\n\nIf youre not shooting with lethal intent, the gun wasnt necessary in the first place. \nIf a non lethal shot can stop them, non lethal options would have stopped them.\nThis is what the military teaches, so idk why people think lethal force is the result of “military style” police",
">\n\nBecause if they survive, they can sue.",
">\n\nMaybe not the point of the quote, but there should never be the thought of \"shoot to wound.\" If you're going to make the decision to fire your weapon at another human being, it should be with the appropriately weighted result of taking a life. There is no half-measure.",
">\n\nThey should at minimum have to earn a 2 year degree on law and ethics. It’s absolutely ridiculous anyone with a GED &/or HS graduate can just join any police department."
] |
>
Police officers should be college educated with a sound understanding of the law......not just ways to skirt around it. | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training.",
">\n\nAlso maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool.",
">\n\nThe problem with a lot of the cops out here now is that they are ex military and they look at citizens as the enemy. I personally think that being in a war zone should disqualify you from being a police officer",
">\n\nYou keep defending them and giving them money, Joe. You are part of the fucking problem.",
">\n\nCops need a serious culture and training overhaul.\nUnfortunately fighting back or reforming a 100 years of the \"modern\" police force will be almost impossible. \nMore training and less power is a start.",
">\n\nPolice officers in the US don't deserve respect, they've lost it as a profession. Hopefully they will be overhauled and gain that respect back again as servents of the public, not executioners.\nMy little brother was so excited to become a police officer when he was younger, by the time George Floyd happened he was in highschool with a girlfriend of color, he has no interest in being an officer now.",
">\n\nHe's damn right!\nLook in every damn western country.\nAnd if you whine the criminals are armed in the U.S., ask yourself whose fault is this. Ask yourself who did put guns in their hands.",
">\n\nUnfortunately the whole legal system is structured to facilitate this currently. Good luck with all that.\nThis is just bullshit posturing, frankly I am tired of it.",
">\n\nAlways surprises me how the people who back cops don't understand that they're not supposed to use their guns unless their life is in danger. Instead of pull gun, shoot, ask questions later.",
">\n\nGot pulled over the other day, cop chatted with me asked me where I worked etc. I work for a therapy office, I'm in college getting my therapy license and told him it required 5 years of schooling and 3000 supervised hours. He was SO SURPRISED. \nHe has a gun and can legally kill people, how much training did he go through??",
">\n\nBack in the mid 2000s I shot someone who had been shooting at law enforcement as they pursued him through a neighboring county. They had tried to stop him and arrest him on rape charges. Long story short he crashed into a strip mall avoiding spike strips before jumping out of the vehicle with a pistol. It was when he pointed the gun at me and then another officer that I fired. \nOne shot, through the web of his left hand with the bullet lodging into the base of his right thumb. The gun was immediately knocked out of his hands, and as I saw it tumbling to the ground and skid out of his reach I released tension on my trigger. He ended up passing out from shock in a pool of his own blood. Detectives latter learned he had tried to make an end run to a bar located in the strip mall he crashed into in order to shoot his girlfriend, the two guys she supposedly was their to hook up with, and whoever else got in his way. He also had a rifle in his vehicle and over a thousand rounds of ammunition (discovered later).\nYou would not believe the shit I got for not unloading my magazine into the guy. My fellow officers just couldn't wrap their heads around the fact I had a perfectly clean chance to \"take a bad guy out\" and didn't. Honestly, the entire experience, including the disgusting jealousy that went along with being the under 5% of law enforcement who actually shoot someone they meant to saw me leave that shitty profession shortly after. The luster entirely gone.",
">\n\nStep 1 - de-program the \"everyone wants to kill you\" mentality that the police academy brainwashed them with",
">\n\nTrue that! And why has this not even been an issue over the last several years of shootings?\nMany people can understand why cops might justifiably shoot. But these guys are not just shooting. They are fusillading often-unarmed people with 16 (Chicago) to 122 (Cleveland) rounds! Even in the most probing inquiries, I've never heard the question 'why so, so many rounds?'",
">\n\nIf I had to go to school(traing) for two years to become a basic Chef, four full years to be a management level Chef; why do the police get the authority to shoot people with as little as six weeks training?!?",
">\n\nIf youre not shooting with lethal intent, the gun wasnt necessary in the first place. \nIf a non lethal shot can stop them, non lethal options would have stopped them.\nThis is what the military teaches, so idk why people think lethal force is the result of “military style” police",
">\n\nBecause if they survive, they can sue.",
">\n\nMaybe not the point of the quote, but there should never be the thought of \"shoot to wound.\" If you're going to make the decision to fire your weapon at another human being, it should be with the appropriately weighted result of taking a life. There is no half-measure.",
">\n\nThey should at minimum have to earn a 2 year degree on law and ethics. It’s absolutely ridiculous anyone with a GED &/or HS graduate can just join any police department.",
">\n\nThe first step to making cops better is to attract better people. I think policing should be a high-wage, bachelor’s degree required job. There should be a specific curriculum, along with mandatory insurance for liability and removal of immunity. If being an officer needs to be something that people want to be, than maybe the right people will take on the role"
] |
> | [
"Using a firearm is always considered deadly force.\nEdit: there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the concept of lethal/deadly force: \nDeadly/lethal force does not mean you are inherently trying to kill the individual. The intent of any use of force continuum is to stop the threat. Plain and simple. \nDeadly/lethal force implies that the amount/type of force you can use to deal with that threat may reasonably result in death. \nIt does not mean the intent is death.",
">\n\nNever point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy.",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army,",
">\n\nTrust me, I was in the Marines and fatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder of why shooter safety is a real thing. A lot of cops shouldn't be armed, period.\nPut them in the tax citation division or some shit.",
">\n\n\nfatal negligent discharges were a yearly reminder \n\nI get that humans aren't perfect, but like... how does this happen in numbers rather than just freak accidents? I served in the military in a different country, and firearm handling was so incredibly strict and controlled. I vividly remember the one dumbass accidentally pointing his rifle in the wrong direction with blanks in it during basic training, and the resulting disciplinary actions made sure nobody ever ever ever screwed up. We could (and had to) take our weapons apart and put them back together blindfolded, and there were multiple steps every time we'd used them to make sure no bullet was stuck or whatever... kind of similar to the parade inspections you see in the U.S., actually. \nWhat did happen on my base while I served was somebody getting behind the wheel drunk and killed himself while also badly injuring his passenger, something that led to free shuttle service where you just called to get picked up if you were too drunk - and they'd bring somebody to drive your vehicle back to the base as well. No questions asked. It was a pretty great idea, honestly. Because of budget constraints, they probably don't do that anymore. \nOr maybe what you're talking about are all freak accidents. I could've misinterpreted your statement.",
">\n\nMostly freak accidents sadly. When I was active duty, a Marine was using the Porta shitter and a M249 SAW misfires and sent 4 rounds into the toilet killing the poor kid. The investigation stated that there was no malice or deliberate tampering with the weapon. Some poor kid got issued a defective weapon and it killed one of his home boys.",
">\n\nHoly crap. Not only did he die in an awful manner - the location makes it even worse.",
">\n\nThis is real work. You and Death become very strange bedfellows while you wear that uniform.",
">\n\nReminder that in many states to become an officially LICENSED BARBER requires more hours of training than to become a police officer.",
">\n\nPolice officers should be required to take classes in sociology, psychology, and social work to do their job properly.",
">\n\nFor what they get paid they should be required to have at least bachelor’s in psychology, criminal justice or pre-law.",
">\n\nSome cities require that, and others push people away who have degrees.",
">\n\nI’d be curious what the data on officer involves shootings say on degree vs no degree. \nI’ve known a few people that have double majored in psych and soc before going to police academy. They are smart people who I believe will make better law enforcement officers!",
">\n\nHonestly the bigger issue is that they're actively trained to be trigger-happy murderers in what little training they get. \nI mean, one of the popular training courses is literally called Killology. It encourages an extreme us vs. them mentality where anyone, anywhere could potentially be an evil gangster rapist who wants to murder you at any time so you better shoot first, ask questions never, and then go have the best sex of your life because murdering gets you so damned horny.",
">\n\n\nshoot first, ask questions never\n\nThis reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto LCPD Training guide video by Horseless Productions",
">\n\nCops definitely need to shed that warrior bullshit training they received as a byproduct of the war on terror. You are not a warrior. You're a traffic cop. This isn't Fallujah, it's Falls River. You shouldn't be expecting a an ambush at a traffic stop.",
">\n\nWe should take back all their MRAPS and other military toys and give it to Ukraine. They need to learn how to act like members of the community and not mercenaries",
">\n\nEvery time I see a cop in their (standard daily) tactical gear, bulletproof everything, urban camo, in the middle of a wal-mart, I imagine them dressed like Barney Fife - a classic, traditional police officer - and wonder why conservatives don't long for that 1950s America. I sure don't see any criminals dressed like they're at war in the store. Why did we allow this to be normalized?",
">\n\n\nWhy did we allow this to be normalized?\n\nShort answer? 9/11. Before that cops wore those those pressed clothes and high-shine shoes that you associate with cops. They were allowed to access surplus Pentagon gear since the '90s but that was usually for dedicated SWAT teams. \nAfter 9/11 they turned on the firehose of that program in the name of fighting terrorism and told cops that they were the front line against it. And here we are.",
">\n\nIt’s absolutely wild that we are losing almost two 9/11 a week of people to Covid and have not changed anything about how our society works, but 9/11 happened one day 22 years ago and I still have take off my shoes at the airport…",
">\n\nYou don't take your shoes off because of 9/11. You take your shoes off because of Richard Reid, whose attempt to bomb a transatlantic flight using a bomb in his shoe also totally failed.",
">\n\nThen why don't I need to take my underwear off too?",
">\n\nThat’s what those backscatter X-ray machines are for. You know the ones where you go into the booth and raise your arms. They can see through your clothes.",
">\n\nYep, first time I was ever on a flight:\nI was told to empty everything in my pockets to the little trays and stuff. I absentmindedly didn’t consider my wallet in my back pocket because it’s just some leather, paper, and plastic. My keys and phone made sense to me somehow… Because being metallic and electronic? Not sure.\nSo they saw the wallet on my ass in the X-ray and had to pull me aside to get patted down. They saw me asking questions to the other workers there, me being somewhat unsure of the exact procedures we had to follow, and with slight exasperation asked me: “Sir, did you leave your wallet in your back pocket?” As they started the pat down.\nI immediately realized that, yes, everything had to go into those trays and I screwed up lmao. Didn’t make that mistake on the return flight back.",
">\n\nSo one time flying from Miami I forgot I put my boarding pass in one of the cargo pocket on my shorts. I took everything else out and put it on the tray. The machine flagged me for something in my lower left leg area. TSA does pat down, didn’t find anything. I get to the gate and as we were boarding I felt around for my boarding pass and that’s when I realize what the machine had flagged.",
">\n\nGerman police get three years of training before they are allowed to carry a weapon.\nAmerica suffers from a lack of training everywhere.",
">\n\nAmerican Police only get 6 months Training or something like that",
">\n\nThe truth is cops SHOULD “shoot with deadly force” every time they shoot, they just should almost never shoot at all. A gun should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances and not as the automatic first reaction.",
">\n\nYeah we don't really need cops running around shooting people in the leg.",
">\n\nShooting a person center mass in a high stress environment is already hard enough, having them try to shoot someone in the leg isn't going to help anything.",
">\n\nExactly. This ant Jason Bourne.. with the stress of everything it's already an impossibly job. I could see something like this actually making it worse",
">\n\nThis is a very American viewpoint. European countries often maintain a shoot-to-wound policy in addition to warning shots policies.",
">\n\nThat's an issue here on Reddit. Americans believe all countries follow that doctrine of \"always shoot center mass and until the threat is neutralized\" and believe that's objectively correct. Meanwhile, safer countries like Germany have warning shots and extremity shots in their doctrines and it works well.",
">\n\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nI agree with more training but not about where to aim.\nThe critical decision is shoot/don't shoot. It's center mass after that point.",
">\n\nThe problem is that they're trained to empty their clip. If they're shooting, it's to kill. A dead man can't sue after all.",
">\n\nThe problem is they’re trained to use lethal force as a first resort when it should be a last resort.",
">\n\nWhich essentially means they are trained to be afraid",
">\n\nI was friends with a cop for a while, he basically believed that all people were evil pieces of shit. He couldn't trust even his closest friends. According to him, this was common among his peers.\nNeedless to say, the friendship didn't work out.",
">\n\nNot that it's right but I think it is easy to understand how cops can develop a cynical attitude towards the public. Many people in regular jobs who deal with the public develop cynical attitudes towards people. Now cops are basically expected to deal with the most \"difficult\" members of society everyday. \nIt becomes a vicious cycle, issues with society leading to \"difficult\" people, leading to cops developing cynical attitudes, leading to cops abusing the public, leading to more issues in society. Add in the bad egg cops who get into the job because they want power over others and it's not hard to understand why there are so many issues with policing in the US.",
">\n\nEdit: please mentally change \"the\" in the first sentence to \"an\". I made it seem like the biggest issue, but it's not.\nSo the issue is that \"shooting for the legs\" is a complete myth. \nIt's so much safer to shoot for center mass, and actually realistic.\nThe issue is not the shooting, but the escalation instead of de-escalation. Why does every American cop make every situation worse? Why can other countries have cops that handle things without shooting up everyone they see? \nEscalation vs de-escalation is the issue, and cops are trained to escalate.",
">\n\n\n\"shooting for the legs\" \n\nAlso the whole \"shot in a major artery and bled out in minutes\" thing about shooting someone in the leg.",
">\n\nHonestly my bigger concern is that if there is a semi lethal option on the table, we'll have cops crippling people over things that should be handled with pepper spray or taser.\nAlready we have cops that abuse rubber bullets and teargas launchers, there's no way we can give police the right to shoot in non lethal scenarios that doesn't result in it becoming an overused crutch",
">\n\nPepper spray and tasers are already “semi lethal”.",
">\n\nThis is the sort of shitty touchy feely idea the only adds fuel to the fire of Republicans. \nCops shouldn't even be drawing their weapon much less shooting at all unless their life is in imminent danger, in which case they shoot to kill because their life is in danger and the center of the body is the easiest target to hit. \nThere's a million things that need to be fixed in the America's militarized police force but \"You should have put a round in his knee\" is not productive discourse.",
">\n\nI mean, yes and no. Cops should not be reaching for their gun on a traffic stop, they’re writing tickets not busting drug kingpins. And if some small-time petty thief is running away, maybe put the gun away instead of shooting them in the back and risking collateral damage.\nBut i do agree that, once the use of a firearm is justified, it’s not time to dick around and shoot for the leg. The chest is a big target, it doesn’t move around as much when running toward you. A gunshot to the leg can be lethal, and people can survive gunshots to the chest. Shy of an imminent deadly threat to a reasonable person, cops should not be using their guns on presumed-innocent civilians.",
">\n\n\nI mean, yes and no.\n\nWhy did you start your comment this way, then agree with everything they said? I think you meant, \"Yes.\"",
">\n\nIn the UK, we know exactly how many shots were fired by police each year(4, according to the most recent data), and how many officers are firearms authorised (6677). They go through such rigorous training it’s ridiculous. The guns alone are the threat",
">\n\nIt could not possibly have something to do with the fact that gun-related crime tracks closely with poverty and high levels of illicit activity, the United States alone makes no effort to take care of its people among all rich nations, and America has always been a culture which regards violence as a legitimate and often preferable way to solve problems? It's just these inanimate guns.",
">\n\nI mean, I was talking about the fact that in the UK having an MP5 pointed at you is legitimately scary, unlike an unfit undertrained racist waving a pistol around",
">\n\nOkay I understand better, thank you. I admire European policing in general, our entire law enforcement and penal system here seems to be designed for making everything worse instead of better and itchy trigger fingers are frankly not the worst of it.\nAn opportunity to end the drug war (which is really a war on minorities) and reform this horrifying prison system is sorely needed and would produce lasting significant results. Instead, what we get from neo-liberals is \"the police should use their guns slightly differently when they shoot civilians.\" It is maddening.",
">\n\nBiden's messaging on this continues to be weird. Like, it's clear that what he means is that cops should use deadly force less often, but unless you're at a shooting range that's literally the only reason to ever pull the trigger of a gun. \nCops need to use their guns less, period. They don't need to be trying to blow peoples legs off in a theoretically \"less than lethal\" trickshot.",
">\n\nHis example of shooting in the leg might be wrong, and I personally agree that it is, but his overarching point that police need to be retrained is absolutely correct. \nI've trained with the San Antonio Police Department in the past as a good faith showing between military cops and the SAPD down at Lackland AFB. They were undisciplined, unruly and broke just about every weapons safety rule that exists, including repeatedly flagging the instructors on the catwalk over the shoot house. They also missed targets within 5m a lot. That was the shooting portion of the course which was a week. They opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation and hostage tactics from the local FBI office. That was around 2015.",
">\n\n\nThey opt'ed out of the remaining two weeks which was de-escalation\n\nthis says A LOT. Personally I don't believe cops give a shit about de-escalation. They probably laugh at the idea behind closed doors",
">\n\nTheir idea of de-escalation:\n“GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND! GET ON THE FUCKBANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG”",
">\n\nGET ON THE FUCKING GROUND\nGET OVER HERE\nDONT MOVE\nCOME HERE OR I WILL SHOOT\nftfy*",
">\n\nMake sure there are at least three officers yelling conflicting instructions all of which have the penalty of \"or I will shoot.\"",
">\n\nThe use of a gun is deadly force. There is no valid situation where an officer should be trying to shoot to wound - if lethal force is not justified then they should not be using their gun.\nTraining to reduce the rate that officers use their guns would of course help, but Biden's suggestion here is unhelpful.",
">\n\nWe really do need a reduction on the use of firearms through training on conflict resolution and changes to general approach to situations.\n18 year old me getting a gun pointed at my chest and told that “if you try to run, I will shoot you” because I was drinking before going away to college really modified my perspective on police firearm use.\nFor situations that do require a firearm, I believe there needs to be more skills and situation-based training (specifically for Illinois State and local police, in my experience).\nIronically, I was the student range officer at the police firing range for a bit after that. After seeing target shooting at 25 yards, I believe we need to raise qualifications to more than just 500 rounds/year and require at least 95% on-target over 1000 rounds (25 yards with service pistol) for situations that do require deadly force (note: that’s still 50 fliers on a human-sized target at 25 yards).\nI grew up with the teaching of only aiming at something I intended to kill and only taking a shot when I was absolutely sure I would hit what I intended to kill, and I wish I saw that at the police range and in my own experiences.",
">\n\nWait, the police used a gun in a situation where an adult but underage person was drinking? How would that ever be appropriate? Is that how they work? Like would they execute a really determined jaywalker or similar?",
">\n\nTo be fair, the guy was a bit of a hot head. Ironically, his stepson was about 100 meters behind me, and the cop took his cruiser back and picked his kid up a few hours later.\nThe guy had a few other issues and eventually got taken off the force, but he was hired on a few towns over in a different county. \nAlso, he was a town officer, responding to a call outside of town (underage drinking report). Technically, he wasn’t supposed to be doing anything, from what I understand.",
">\n\nYou dont need to be fair to a person like that, they are a potential murderer given consent and free reign for them to murder someone by the state. It is as simple as that.",
">\n\nGuns are for killing. No one should EVER use a gun unless they intended to kill the thing they are pointing it at. If a person does not intend to inflict death, their gun should stay in a secure place.",
">\n\nGet rid of qualified immunity and they’ll be less apt to act with impunity.",
">\n\nOr make them get licensed and insured",
">\n\nIf you're shooting, deadly force is pretty much why.",
">\n\nI don’t think the problem can simply be scape-goateed as training. It’s much deeper than that. We have deep disagreements abut what the role of the police should be, what we expect from them, and what are the limits of government authority. the whole conservative “law and order” philosophy is the belief that the police exist not only to enforce written laws, but also to enforce an unspoken cultural order. Rodney King was beaten to within inches of his life and the officers were initially acquitted by a jury who believed the police were acting appropriately by “teaching Rodney King a lesson.” There are tens and tens of millions of people in this country that want a strong-arm police force that takes undesirables out behind the shed and teaches them a lesson. More city leaders get voted out of office because they weren’t heavy enough on crime than get voted out for their police departments being overzealous. These are societal problems and not simply training problems.",
">\n\nRetrain the cops but also retrain the laws that protect cops. Carrying a badge does not make you above the law.",
">\n\nPolice in the UK, who don’t carry firearms, routinely disarm machete wielding people as part of their jobs.\nSome of us can remember a time before the cops became so militarized. They were always quick to violence but they’ve only gotten the full battle rattle in the last 15 years. \nOur police can and should be held to a higher standard.",
">\n\nMore like, why should we have an entire training organizing training our police to perceive the citizens they’re sworn to protect as enemies and deadly threats regardless of the situation?",
">\n\nFUCK NEW YORK POST\nPlease stop upvoting these murdoch propagandists. They still fully support every cop and GOP traitor, despite the clickbait headline.",
">\n\nTreating shooting as non-lethal is wrong.",
">\n\nMaybe their training should be longer? Here in swe it’s 2years… university level… followed by 6 months as trainees on the job…",
">\n\nSend them on training rotations with the British police.",
">\n\nBecause they're white and scared of unarmed brown people.",
">\n\nThis is going to get re-labeled as \"Biden trying to De-fund Police\" by Fox News before morning",
">\n\nThe NY Post is also owned by Murdouch. They’re trying to rile people up with this.",
">\n\nOk, I love Dark Brandon as much as anyone else, but this is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from his mouth.\nEVERY SHOT FROM A FIREARM IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL!\nDON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO KILL THEM!\nEDIT: Before anyone says I am misinterpreting, this is the quote from the article:\n“We have to retrain cops,” Biden said. “Why should you always shoot with deadly force? The fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.” \nThe implication is clearly that officers not use deadly force when using their weapons.",
">\n\nI think what we really need is an independent board or some elected office. Solely to handle police incidents. \nMost of the outrage I see in my experience, stems from decades of Police investigating Police, and finding \"no wrong doing\" despite evidence that may say otherwise with no clear reasoning for absolving the cop(s).\nIf incidents like Floyd case are handled properly and swiftly, we can start to rebuild trust with Police in our communities again.\nAlso, can we get a blacklist of cops please? Or make the records of our public servants, I don't know, public?",
">\n\nDisband existing gang-like local PDs and create a national police force with way heavier oversight.",
">\n\nI am in agreement with the idea of avoiding deadly force to control a situation. As someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California the rules are very strict. You cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger. You cannot shoot someone who walks into your home and grabs your TV and runs out unless the person forcibly enters the residence. However training with a firearm is very clear and very universal. I and everyone I know who have been trained is taught to shoot center of mass. No shooting in the leg, for example, because a leg is easy to miss and the bullet is then on the loose and that’s how innocent bystanders get shot. You aim for the largest target available and that is the center of the chest.\nMy point is this, if firearms are used for stopping an assailant deadly force is unavoidable. Either the cop has to use another method (eg pepper spray or TASER), or the rules of engagement need to be re-written.",
">\n\n\nYou cannot use deadly force unless you or someone else’s life is in danger.\n\nbut what we see with police is every little thing makes them \"fear for their lives\" and suddenly in their minds they ARE in danger\nand fuckers like Dave Grossman teaching them that they ARE in danger every time they leave their house leads to all that\nthis is why people like me are in favor of military RoE being used on American police. Stop shooting people for moving their hands and \"reaching\" and only shoot when they pull what is clearly a gun and aim\nAny cop who shoots and kills someone because they \"thought\" they saw a gun but the victim actually doesn't have one? Phone or wallet or something? That office is fired, jailed, and can never be a cop again",
">\n\nBecause you don’t shoot if you don’t have to.",
">\n\nI agree in principle. You shouldn’t go to your pistol if you haven’t exhausted all non lethal deescalation strategies. \nBut on the rare occasions you may have to use your firearm, this isn’t the movies. Shots to your legs, arms, and shoulders can end up being lethal. It’s also notoriously hard to hit with pin point accuracy when shooting at someone working their best not to get shot. \nSo yes to better training on positive strategies! No to thinking LE is going to be precision shooters only hitting non lethal body parts.",
">\n\nCenter of mass is def the correct call when you have to shoot. Anything else is just thinking like a video game. \nThe main issue is that cops are trained to shoot first. There are a ton of ex military guys that have become advisors for police. They train the cops to think like it's a hostile warzone full of insurgents.",
">\n\nI don't think it is the exmil guys. The miliary guys have said that the police are far to trigger happy. They have rules of engagement in the military to stop you shooting civilians and committing war crimes.",
">\n\nRetraining can't fix the problem.\nThere needs to be lengthy prison sentences for every cop involved in an attack and cover up.",
">\n\nThe guy that says all you need is a shotgun's take on using a pistol. Pistols are not all that accurate of a weapon, add in the stress of using the thing in real life, and hitting center mass is the best most anyone can do. Even with all the training they get.",
">\n\nI remember when police had 'To Serve and Protect...\" on every cruiser.\nNow they have Punisher logos (Which is ironic to me, since the Punisher HATED cops.)",
">\n\nUnpopular opinion: cops should receive martial arts training. This is so they have something other than their gun to reach for.\nIf cops know how to properly restrain someone with, for example, Jiu-Jitsu techniques, suspects are far less likely to get shot, tased, choked, suffocated, or suffer permanent injuries.",
">\n\nWorlds largest gang going through “retraining”",
">\n\nA black comedian (whose name I can’t remember) said it perfectly: “fearing for your life” is actually an adequate reason to use deadly force. But before we hire you, we need to know what you’re afraid of. The final test in the police academy should just be a “house of horrors”…but once inside, they realize it’s just black people doing normal things. You make it through without shooting anyone, you’re good.",
">\n\nWell finally a political leader that calls for retraining a mindset that has corrupted Police Departments for decades. I can remember going through training and it was a shoot to wound/disarm. How it turned into a right to kill instead of wound/disarm is baffling.",
">\n\nA better question would be \"why do we always shoot?\"\nIf a gun comes out, it's for deadly force. Period. End of story.\nWhy aren't we training cops in deescalation and actual investigative techniques?",
">\n\nStart by training them for more than a few weeks at best and make there record fallow them it's not just blacks they lie about and shoot",
">\n\nEliminate qualified immunity. No one showed be immune from the law.",
">\n\nTrust me, once you get rid of qualified immunity, they’ll become a lot more reasonable",
">\n\nYou can't reform fascism. ACAB. Abolish police.",
">\n\nYes, they should \nA gun is a weapon of last resort it is used when all other options have failed\nImproved training and equipment to give the police more options before they have to resort to deadly is what is required",
">\n\nWhy?\nBecause the federal government declared war on the people of the country with \"The War on Drugs.\"\nIt was always a war against the American people. \nNot ust retraining...but a new metric for what it takes to be an officer. College degree required with emphasis in public service, sociology, psychology, which would include...deescalation, and not using violence to solve every problem.\nWhy shoot with deadly force?\nbecause there are so few consequences when they do",
">\n\nCops should always shoot to kill. It’s just they shouldn’t shoot 1/1000th of the time it seems",
">\n\nThe dead are less likely to sue",
">\n\nAbsolutely the correct answer to this problem. We have militarized the police with predictable results.",
">\n\nBootlickers: “He’s not a cop! Only cops can set policy for cops because nobody but cops know what cops go through or how cops do their jobs!”\nLike, no: the community of people being policed needs to set the standards for how they want police to behave. Otherwise you end up with an authority answerable only to itself, which is authoritarian and anti-democratic.",
">\n\nBecause when they say “to serve and protect” they meant themselves…",
">\n\nGive cops mandatory training every year or two like drill for the national guard. Retrain them how to de-escalate and restrain without killing them. Make it part of their professional development. \nUntrain all of this “I must scare them into obedience” bullshit, it’s obviously not working and fueling more and more tension between police and non-police.\nNowadays, I see a police officer and immediately get annoyed. What are they going to stop me for this time? What unnecessary questions are they going to ask me this time? I’m black and the last time a cop targeted me was 4 years ago. I taught at his childrens’ school in the rural Midwest.",
">\n\nHealthcare workers have to do continuing education classes every year. Law enforcement agencies should have to do the same thing with de-escalation tactics, minimum yearly",
">\n\nIf the police received the same type and level of introductory and on-going training as the US Army, there would be an immediate and overwhelming reduction in civilian casualties. \nTo argue otherwise signals a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what that training entails and allows.",
">\n\nRetraining is not going to do it. You need to burn the whole system down and rebuild it from the ashes. Most of the people who are cops now are unable to be retrained and need to be fired.",
">\n\nI’m a big critic of the police. This right here is stupid. They need to train in de escalation.\nIf you legitimately have to pull your weapon it should only be done when deadly force is necessary or may be necessary in a split decision.",
">\n\nHe's right. \nThe only reason I can think of why police dump whole magazines of ammunition into people is to mitigate the possibility of having to pay their victims should courts rule against them after the fact.",
">\n\nI mean, people are trained to shoot center mass for many reasons and that shouldn’t change. What should change is that the gun is not the most accessible tool and should be the tool of last resort.",
">\n\nStart by reworking their union. Have them face real accountability for their fuck ups with jail time and have lawsuits come from their budget.",
">\n\nMake the color code model standard for all training and put on a heavier focus and ramifications for failure to do deescalation. Also do away with qualified immunity, and take cops pensions. Oh, and let's crack down on shitty departments and sheriffs where gang culture has taken hold. One proposal off the top of my head, no more of that stupid back the blue or thin blue line american flag shit. That is how gang culture is created and the good guys who do call this shit out need to be rewarded.",
">\n\nBecause firearms are inherently potentially lethal, the only time you should use them is when the objective is to kill the target. \nLikewise it's entirely possible to miss, or for a bullet to fail to immediately incapacitate the target. Therefore multiple shots should be taken.\nThe last thing we need is police shooting to wound, because treating a gun as a less lethal option will just allow police to use their guns more often and in less dire circumstances.\nThe purpose of police having guns is to enable then to kill people as a last resort. I have no issues with that, it's sometimes necessary. \nThe change to police training should not be to shoot to wound, but to use legitimately less lethal options or to better de-escalate situations where possible.",
">\n\nWell said",
">\n\nThey don’t need training. They need enforcement and accountability that isn’t internal. The police have repeatedly proven beyond a doubt they cannot police themselves. Nothing will change until there is enforcement and accountability that hits pay, pensions, makes them ineligible for rehire, or puts them in prison when they “oopsie” kill unarmed teenagers.",
">\n\nWhy do you need to gun to write somebody a ticket for not using their blinker???",
">\n\n\n‘Why should you always shoot with deadly force?’\n\nBecause that's how guns work. They're not phasers; they don't have a stun setting.\nLess-snarkily: perhaps what he meant to say was, \"Why should you always reach for your gun?\"",
">\n\nBecause when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.\nOr put simply, cops are assholes who think they are above the law.\nAnd, as recent events have shown, they usually are.",
">\n\nIf Republicans actually backed the blue why the fuck are they so Gung ho on concealed carry for everyone. Do they they think this will put cops at ease? You think cops are trigger happy now?",
">\n\nExactly. Once cops know everyone could be armed, it will only get worse. These fools think a cop won't see them as a threat once they know they have a gun on them. And cops aren't going to be real comfortable about it either.",
">\n\n\"Shoot them in the leg\" Biden says. Seriously needs to do some sort of research before having diarrhea of the mouth. Not only do you possibly put the suspect in more danger by doing that, but you're also putting everyone around in danger if you miss.",
">\n\nEvErY tImE I pUt On ThAt UnIfOrM I mIgHt NoT cOmE hOmE!",
">\n\n40% of spouses: 🤞",
">\n\nEhhhh… I’m all for retraining, better training, more accountability, less use of force, deescaltion, getting rid of qualified immunity, the works.\nBut if you are in a situation where you must use your firearm, you’re shooting to kill. You’re not trying to like “wing” somebody or shoot them in the leg or whatever. Once the decision has been made to use a firearm you’re choosing death as an option.",
">\n\nThere is only one way to shoot.",
">\n\nBro, you can't retrain someone who isn't trained in the first place. Here it's three years of school to become police.",
">\n\nBecause they are revenue generators for the state and enforcers of white supremacy, that's the unwritten pact. The only difference now is video is everywhere, which has made plausible deniably almost impossible now, and they know this. Most white America thinks blacks are inherently criminal and mentally inferior, and even when presented with imperial evidence showing this not to be the case, they will dismiss the information presented. This is why policing operates this way.",
">\n\nLess murder, more ice cream, Jack",
">\n\n“They were coming right at me!”",
">\n\nThere certainly needs to be a refocusing of policing towards community and investigative practices and away from the warrior, thin blue line, tactical culture. That being said there is a strong justification for most officers being armed. The prevalence of guns, especially pistols, among the public necessitates armed officers. The doctrine of what type of situation necessitates lethal force should be reexamined and how to better deescalate situations.",
">\n\nIf everyone’s watching this something that the republicans and democrats strategically agree on. If you can throw money at the problem and not fundamentally change the accountability, you’re just creating a slush fund for the police.",
">\n\n“Aim for the knees” -training manual 2023",
">\n\nThey should remember the protect and serve thing and stop pretending to be SAS operatives. American police scare me as they sometimes kill random people. I don’t want to live in a place where a drunk is tased or shot rather than helped home.",
">\n\nBecause shooting for any other reason is still likely to result in death, and sometimes not the death of your intended target. If you're shooting then it should be to kill flat out. That's not the problem. \nThe problem is how frequently cops go to shooting as the resolution to whatever they're facing which is a direct result of how we train cops that the streets are a battlefield and the citizenry they're in charge of policing are the hostile opposing force.",
">\n\nKillology is just Fascism For Dummies.",
">\n\nJust require a minimum of 2-3 years of training instead of 6 months for new trainees! Why does no one consider this!?",
">\n\nHave to agree with the dude, he has a point. Retraining's probably needed.",
">\n\nWhile \"retraining\" might sound like a good idea on paper, in practice it just means giving them more money, and nothing actually changes.\nThe only way things will change is if cops get LESS money, we get rid of the Pentagon-to-police equipment pipeline, and we get full civilian control over police (unlike the rogue gangs we have now).",
">\n\nBecause once you pull the gun it is to kill. Cops should be trained to use it as a last resort. Too many use it as a first in situations where it doesn’t make sense.",
">\n\nReasonable old man says reasonable thing. Can't wait for the vastly disproportionate backlash.",
">\n\nEven New Zealand cops, who dont routinely carry guns always shoot with the intent to kill, thats what they for, shooting to wound is a movie thing.\nCops need to be trained not to wave them round",
">\n\namerican cops are as casually violent as a lot of ss officers were, the only difference is the ss were considered professionals and the police in america rae nothing more than a bad stereotype of ignorance and hate",
">\n\nHonestly our armed forces treat civilians in other countries better than our cops treat us.",
">\n\nBecause there are no consequences.",
">\n\nI understand the sentiment but if you are shooting it should be with lethal force.\nThey just shouldn’t be shooting so damn much.",
">\n\n\nWhy should you shoot with deadly force?\n\nBecause you shouldn't use guns for any other reason. If you want to smack their hand, smack their hand.",
">\n\nOr just shoot to incapacitate if you can.\nYou actually have videos where cops still shoot a guy 2 more times after he pumped him with several rounds beforehand he was shaking from system shock. \nThere are just too many instances of excessive use of force.",
">\n\nAny time you shoot, you shoot to kill. Acting otherwise will make police more comfortable using their weapons and will lead to more injuries and bystander issues with ricochet and the like.\nCops just shouldn't have firearms on their person.",
">\n\nCops: The Thin Blue Line, us vs you. \nAlso Cops: We’re asking the public’s assistance to do our jobs, which we will take full credit for after they do it for us. \nCops: I am not a public servant, your taxes don’t pay my salary.\nIt’s a wild ride to follow.",
">\n\nbecause they are all cowards. the kind of person that becomes a cop is inherently a coward. train them all you want, if they have guns, they will shoot people in the back. fuck the police.",
">\n\nIn This Thread: You can clearly see if the person writing is American or not. \nIf they use phrases such as always shoot to kill, they are an American. \nEverywhere else, police are routinely and successfully using firearms to only incapacitate, not kill, criminals. \nYou could show them five news articles from last year alone about police successfully shooting non-lethally at armed perpetrators, and they will not believe you. They are too brainwashed to believe it to be possible. \nI know, as I have had this exact conversation about three times in my life. At least one guy already had it in this thread, and the other guy just got quiet after evidence was presented to him. \nI once literally dug out an interview from a police chief in my country, saying that they train police officers to try to shoot non-lethally first. After already showing five or so news articles about instances of that exact thing happening. \nThe American mutters something about how every shot is potentially deadly, and logs out.",
">\n\nIt’s a good question. We have so many non lethal options now. Why not consider immobilizing the suspect first before shooting them?",
">\n\nFinally!",
">\n\nHow about a requirement for cops to provide 1st aid to someone who they have shot & are no longer a threat?\nLetting someone bleed out is often a travesty.",
">\n\nI mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.",
">\n\nFinally.",
">\n\nThey need to retrain them and hold them accountable for killing unarmed people.",
">\n\nDeadly force mostly applies to the black folk, plus white nationalists have infiltrated the police force",
">\n\nUmm when a gun is pulled and used it’s because they are using deadly force it doesn’t matter how many bullets they use most people can’t survive just one shot.",
">\n\nbecause of cost benefit analysis applied to officer interactions. if it weren’t for capitalism it wouldn’t be an incentive to kill those that would otherwise bring lawsuits against their organizations",
">\n\nThis is literally what defund the police called for.",
">\n\nAlso, why isn't killing a suspect before trial considered witness tampering.\nIf they're dead, they can't testify. \nThe Department of Defense has an entire non-lethal weapons program at Quantico.\nJoint Intermediate Force Capabilities Office\nU.S. Department of Defense Non-Lethal Weapons Program",
">\n\n“Shoot them in the leg instead” is a non starter. \nRetraining police especially around use of force is sorely needed in America. That said, Biden is on the wrong path here and trying to shoot to subdue rather that kill is a super dangerous idea for anyone except true best of the best type elite military units who might need that flexibility (and have the training to do it with reasonable success). The average cop already misses their target entirely the vast majority of the time. On top of that, being shot anywhere has a chance of being deadly (or causing serious life altering injury) even for a healthy adult.\nWe need to push hard and get rid of all this warrior mentality and cops geared up like they are about to storm a drug cartel stronghold while they are out writing traffic tickets or investigating typical crimes. I am actually ok with a reasonable slice of law enforcement being trained and equipped to handle extreme situations. Hostage rescues, true high risk warrants, bomb threats, or some nut running through a crowded place shooting people. The training needs to be very heavy on when these techniques and equipment are appropriate. \nThere is an argument to be made that having every officer so equipped is needed because we never know when or where such things will pop up and we need to be prepared to respond quickly. I would counter that I don’t even have a problem if many many officers go through this training, and maybe even many of them have some additional gear in their trunk for when they are first on scene to something major. But the condition should be that they are regularly trained and demonstrate proficiency not just on the tactics and equipment, but on policies and procedures around their use and the rights of citizens/protestors/criminals etc. That training is expensive and depts probably can only afford the time and training to the extent it is really and truly necessary. \nBottom line, if Barney Fife is first on scene to a school shooting in progress you bet your ass I would like him to be well trained and realize that he needs to put on his vest and grab his carbine and fucking run in and risk his life to stop the threat. He better also be trained well enough to not be putting the kids in the school in greater danger with his actions. In every case he better be trained well enough to know what he is supposed to do and not do given his level of training and how to communicate and be effective. Not every officer is going to be capable of this level of training, and rookies won’t be there for a few years at minimum. We should resource law enforcement agencies to make sure that the right mix of officers and training level and equipment are there and ready to be used. Overspending on tactical gear for a small town police dept is a waste if they can just call the county or state and get their swat team over the once a year when it is needed.",
">\n\nIm not pro cop by any means whatsoever but \"shooting the leg\" is terrible advice and thats how more people would end up dead. Drawing a firearm means your life or the life of someone else is in danger, so shooting until the opponent is down (not necessarily dead) and incapacitated is the only responsible thing to do.",
">\n\nHonestly. I don’t think most of these people can be “retrained”, they need to see the benefit of the retraining for it to be embraced. They need to be replaced.",
">\n\nI took an 8 hour course when I was a kid to get my deer hunting license. Felt like that was more training than what cops in America get.",
">\n\nAll current officers in the US need to be phased out with a new police force that is rigorously tested to not hold right wing ideologies. Education and training needs to be severely increased to be eligible to be an officer. We need to get rid of the current police that are nothing but a gang to protect the rich and shake down the poor for money. The countless examples of police not being qualified for the position keep happening. Uvalde should have been a huge wakeup call that the current police are not in place to protect citizens. They don't just need retraining, they need to phase out all currently employed police since they are all compromised and make them ineligible for reemployment. Even ex-police are a problem when they are still part of a gang involved with active police. The police in this country have literally become nothing but another far right terrorist organisation.",
">\n\nIf all cops were trained in martial arts, they could subdue perps instead of killing them.",
">\n\ngoogle daniel shaver",
">\n\nthat's why the police need to be defunded and some of those resources spent on social engineering and social work. \nwhy in the hell do you send and armed individual to a heated domestic dispute? does that sound like a good idea?",
">\n\nWe have a problem. Police have too much power and they are out of control. They usually do not like to deescalate and seem offended if you question what they are doing. They need better selection in the hiring process, better training, and much broader oversight. At the same time, since we can't stop filling this country up with guns, we need to give them the protection, support, and resources that they need so they do not feel that it is us against them; we are all in this together.",
">\n\n*Less than 10% of the cases where an individual was killed by police involved an unarmed subject, *\nThat doesn’t sound like a good statistic to me.",
">\n\nThis is why DEFUND was always the wrong word. Tons of money spent to train officers how to do their jobs in a way that yields the safest outcomes. We want a mfing REFUND!",
">\n\nPolice needing to be retrained is a gross understatement. The entire philosophy embedded into police through their academy needs to be rewritten. The entire culture that's been bred among police to reinforce this collective authority and superiority that they have over people needs to be abolished. Their duties need to be retrained. The structure in which they govern themselves needs to be rebuilt. They need to answer for their mistakes. Corruption needs to be bled out. Most cops don't need guns.\nAnything short of all of this would be a tragedy.",
">\n\nI can hear now “why should I let him tell me how to do my job!” as the constantly berate dems on how to do their job.",
">\n\nCops need training to know that when they point a gun and pull the trigger that it kills people?",
">\n\nBad tagline for Biden but I'd go more giving police time for detainment and training around not shooting for running away.\nSo many of the inicidents we end up seeing are for \"they resisted\" and I go back to Japanese tactics of \"so what?\" if they are restrained they will not be going anywhere, so let them tire themselves out. No need for tasers or aggressive pinning down or worse. Be ok with the arrest taking longer and let the person tire themselves out trying to resist. \nThe other I see too much is trying to run justifying use of deadly force. Someone on foot probably is not going far, and at worse just letting someone go usually just leads to upset police more than anything. But upset police & suspect at large is still a better outcome than dead suspect or bystander 99.999% of the time.",
">\n\nPOTUS remembers the hero cowboys, who could shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, or hit him in the shoulder. He just doesn’t get it does he?",
">\n\nMy heart goes out to the victims and family of those affected by police brutality and abuse of force. Policing definitely needs to see higher standards of training nationwide. But wow, this article is...something.\n--\n\nthey’re taught not to use deadly force in every situation that requires them to fire their weapon.\n\nPut in other words, \"they should be trained not to do what the situation requires\"\n\nThe fact is if you need to use your weapon, you don’t have to do that.”\n\nAgain in other words, \"If you need to do something, you don't have to\"\nThe pitch just doesn't make sense.",
">\n\nAs soon as his protective detail receives that training and is held to that standard, I’ll be all ears.",
">\n\nHe's right, the shoot first ask questions later shit needs to end.",
">\n\nI am tired of this \"it's a training issue\" talking point.\nIt is not a training issue, LEO's know when they are wrong and they just don't care bc there is no consequences for being in the wrong.\nIt is a culture of corruption and a lack of oversite issue.\n\"More training\" is a way for Biden to pretend to care while not actually doing anything about the real issue.",
">\n\nDoesn't retraining implies there was any training in the first place?",
">\n\nShoot to kill means a gun can only be deployed to protect life. Because it’s very much a lethal weapon. I feel “shoot to injure” lowers the bar and allows for pistols to be used when less lethal weapons should be used. E.g. taser, baton, pepper spray, etc. \nWhat we need is deescalation. Cops are thought to always control the scene and never back down unless their own life is in danger. This isn’t always the right call. And it’s hard to make the right call with 8-12 weeks of training. \nIn Canada, police officers receive 3 years of post secondary education at a university, then 1 year at the Province’s police academy. Canadian police officers also F up and can be bastards but they are way less incidents and they are more professional. People wanting to be policemen need to invest 4 years of their life in training.",
">\n\nAlso maybe stop recruiting exclusively from the “high school bully too stupid to get into college” pool.",
">\n\nThe problem with a lot of the cops out here now is that they are ex military and they look at citizens as the enemy. I personally think that being in a war zone should disqualify you from being a police officer",
">\n\nYou keep defending them and giving them money, Joe. You are part of the fucking problem.",
">\n\nCops need a serious culture and training overhaul.\nUnfortunately fighting back or reforming a 100 years of the \"modern\" police force will be almost impossible. \nMore training and less power is a start.",
">\n\nPolice officers in the US don't deserve respect, they've lost it as a profession. Hopefully they will be overhauled and gain that respect back again as servents of the public, not executioners.\nMy little brother was so excited to become a police officer when he was younger, by the time George Floyd happened he was in highschool with a girlfriend of color, he has no interest in being an officer now.",
">\n\nHe's damn right!\nLook in every damn western country.\nAnd if you whine the criminals are armed in the U.S., ask yourself whose fault is this. Ask yourself who did put guns in their hands.",
">\n\nUnfortunately the whole legal system is structured to facilitate this currently. Good luck with all that.\nThis is just bullshit posturing, frankly I am tired of it.",
">\n\nAlways surprises me how the people who back cops don't understand that they're not supposed to use their guns unless their life is in danger. Instead of pull gun, shoot, ask questions later.",
">\n\nGot pulled over the other day, cop chatted with me asked me where I worked etc. I work for a therapy office, I'm in college getting my therapy license and told him it required 5 years of schooling and 3000 supervised hours. He was SO SURPRISED. \nHe has a gun and can legally kill people, how much training did he go through??",
">\n\nBack in the mid 2000s I shot someone who had been shooting at law enforcement as they pursued him through a neighboring county. They had tried to stop him and arrest him on rape charges. Long story short he crashed into a strip mall avoiding spike strips before jumping out of the vehicle with a pistol. It was when he pointed the gun at me and then another officer that I fired. \nOne shot, through the web of his left hand with the bullet lodging into the base of his right thumb. The gun was immediately knocked out of his hands, and as I saw it tumbling to the ground and skid out of his reach I released tension on my trigger. He ended up passing out from shock in a pool of his own blood. Detectives latter learned he had tried to make an end run to a bar located in the strip mall he crashed into in order to shoot his girlfriend, the two guys she supposedly was their to hook up with, and whoever else got in his way. He also had a rifle in his vehicle and over a thousand rounds of ammunition (discovered later).\nYou would not believe the shit I got for not unloading my magazine into the guy. My fellow officers just couldn't wrap their heads around the fact I had a perfectly clean chance to \"take a bad guy out\" and didn't. Honestly, the entire experience, including the disgusting jealousy that went along with being the under 5% of law enforcement who actually shoot someone they meant to saw me leave that shitty profession shortly after. The luster entirely gone.",
">\n\nStep 1 - de-program the \"everyone wants to kill you\" mentality that the police academy brainwashed them with",
">\n\nTrue that! And why has this not even been an issue over the last several years of shootings?\nMany people can understand why cops might justifiably shoot. But these guys are not just shooting. They are fusillading often-unarmed people with 16 (Chicago) to 122 (Cleveland) rounds! Even in the most probing inquiries, I've never heard the question 'why so, so many rounds?'",
">\n\nIf I had to go to school(traing) for two years to become a basic Chef, four full years to be a management level Chef; why do the police get the authority to shoot people with as little as six weeks training?!?",
">\n\nIf youre not shooting with lethal intent, the gun wasnt necessary in the first place. \nIf a non lethal shot can stop them, non lethal options would have stopped them.\nThis is what the military teaches, so idk why people think lethal force is the result of “military style” police",
">\n\nBecause if they survive, they can sue.",
">\n\nMaybe not the point of the quote, but there should never be the thought of \"shoot to wound.\" If you're going to make the decision to fire your weapon at another human being, it should be with the appropriately weighted result of taking a life. There is no half-measure.",
">\n\nThey should at minimum have to earn a 2 year degree on law and ethics. It’s absolutely ridiculous anyone with a GED &/or HS graduate can just join any police department.",
">\n\nThe first step to making cops better is to attract better people. I think policing should be a high-wage, bachelor’s degree required job. There should be a specific curriculum, along with mandatory insurance for liability and removal of immunity. If being an officer needs to be something that people want to be, than maybe the right people will take on the role",
">\n\nPolice officers should be college educated with a sound understanding of the law......not just ways to skirt around it."
] |
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