Datasets:

---

innovation-hacking2

/

shitposting_dataset3

like 0

[ "Republicans and being investigated...SO HOT RIGHT NOW", ">\n\nConsequences would be so much hotter.", ">\n\nGeQrge SantQs looks like Kyle Rittenhouse grew up and then came back from a post apocalyptic future where absolute truth no longer exists.", ">\n\n\"New revelations about possible misinformation, malfeasance, and outright lying has rocked the Rep.-elect's office mere weeks before he is sworn into service, a move GOP strategists claim is a 'cynical ploy' to derail the ascendancy of would-be Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy. Fact checkers at the New York Times have cast doubt upon the following claims made by Santos:\n*Claim: Santos says he 'hacked his Playstation' and found a code to make Lara Croft nude in Tomb Raider 2, 'and you can see her nipples and everything. When pressed for evidence, Santos said it only works on the 'first alpha generation of Playstation consoles that were really quickly yanked out of stores in 1995 and given free replacements by Sony, who in turn covered this up by claiming the originals would catch fire really easily'.\"\n*Claim: In March 2003 Santos told an audience he 'one time got both Boardwalk and Park Place in the McDonalds Monopoly game from the same Diet Coke, but his cousin Tommy was a 'huge dick' and threw away their trash while Santos went to the front counter to order a Filet o' Fish.\"\n*Claim: In a 2019 diatribe, Santos told a Kiwanis Club audience he 'is not allowed to take \"normal\" karate classes' because his Uncle Craig who was in 'Nam showed him some of the things 'he learned from some guys who do Thai kick-boxing' and thus is 'too dangerous' to the other students.\"\nClaim: \"Santos told a group of National Honor Students during a routine photo op that he 'invented the blumpkin at a Staten Island Burger King in 1991'.\"\nClaim: \"During a meeting of the Young Republicans Club of New York, Santos told a break out strategy session group that he possessed a near-legendary 'super long Director's cut' of the 1984 David Lynch version of Dune that his cousin Amber taped off Cinemax back in like, 1987. According to Santos, this version features a scene of actress Sean Young topless.\"\n*Claim: \"During an August press conference, Santos deviated from his prepared notes to regale the audience with his account of being a toddler stuck down a well in East Texas.\"", ">\n\nIt’s so sad that I can’t tell if this post is satire or not.", ">\n\nI was thinking the same thing.", ">\n\nGeorge Santos next claim: \"I never claimed to be Christian. My friend Ian had just farted, I said \"Christ, IAN.\"", ">\n\nWhy vote for someone you don’t know you trust. \nVote for someone you KNOW you can’t trust”-George Santos political slogan when is is made the Republican candidate for president.", ">\n\nIt’s not a bad slogan in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps too on the nose for politicians though.", ">\n\nDude, just resign. You got caught lying over and over again. Admit it, apologize, say “the appropriate thing for me to do is to resign,” and then resign. Do what’s right for the people you claim to want to be a voice for and give them a real voice.", ">\n\nWhy would he resign? It’s unlikely he’s going to face serious repercussions from this, maybe a small fine that will be paid by the GOP to ensure he’s a good boi who’s very quiet and votes as he’s told to. \nAnd after 1 term he’ll have the incumbent advantage and a solid conservative voting record.", ">\n\nThe scariest things about all of this is that Santos WON. He's not a good liar. He openly contradicted himself. His lies were easily proven to be lies. But he still won. \nThe GOP has sunk to a new low with candidates like Santos and Herschel Walker. But what is really disturbing is that Santos won, and Walker came close to winning twice.", ">\n\nIt's because people only vote for the D or the R. Congressional votes are so partisan now that each election win for a party is a guaranteed vote for the party's agenda.\nThese idiots aren't expected to govern. They're just rubber stamps for their party.", ">\n\nI'm expecting him to disappear once the holodeck glitches out.", ">\n\nNah. Holodecks are pretty reliable to avoid that. Maybe we could just ask it to disable the George Santos holoprogram?", ">\n\n“NOTE: The Santos hologram lies. Do not listen to it.”", ">\n\nHe should be the next republican presidential candidate. He represents the party well", ">\n\nIf only there was some profession that would out these fraudsters before they get elected to office.", ">\n\nGeorge Costanzos.", ">\n\n\"It's not a lie if you believe it!\"", ">\n\nHe lent his campaign 700k, someone needs to find the source of that money. Bet it runs right to moscow", ">\n\nI’m waiting for the Scooby-Doo mask to come off and reveal Santos was actually Andy Dick this whole time.", ">\n\nClaimed his mom died on December 23rd and 9/11 on Twitter. It’s like he’s using life like most people use Reddit", ">\n\nAre you trying to say the things people say on reddit aren't true?!?!", ">\n\nNext claim: \"Y'all didn't know I was an agent?\"" ]

[ "Republicans and being investigated...SO HOT RIGHT NOW", ">\n\nConsequences would be so much hotter.", ">\n\nGeQrge SantQs looks like Kyle Rittenhouse grew up and then came back from a post apocalyptic future where absolute truth no longer exists.", ">\n\n\"New revelations about possible misinformation, malfeasance, and outright lying has rocked the Rep.-elect's office mere weeks before he is sworn into service, a move GOP strategists claim is a 'cynical ploy' to derail the ascendancy of would-be Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy. Fact checkers at the New York Times have cast doubt upon the following claims made by Santos:\n*Claim: Santos says he 'hacked his Playstation' and found a code to make Lara Croft nude in Tomb Raider 2, 'and you can see her nipples and everything. When pressed for evidence, Santos said it only works on the 'first alpha generation of Playstation consoles that were really quickly yanked out of stores in 1995 and given free replacements by Sony, who in turn covered this up by claiming the originals would catch fire really easily'.\"\n*Claim: In March 2003 Santos told an audience he 'one time got both Boardwalk and Park Place in the McDonalds Monopoly game from the same Diet Coke, but his cousin Tommy was a 'huge dick' and threw away their trash while Santos went to the front counter to order a Filet o' Fish.\"\n*Claim: In a 2019 diatribe, Santos told a Kiwanis Club audience he 'is not allowed to take \"normal\" karate classes' because his Uncle Craig who was in 'Nam showed him some of the things 'he learned from some guys who do Thai kick-boxing' and thus is 'too dangerous' to the other students.\"\nClaim: \"Santos told a group of National Honor Students during a routine photo op that he 'invented the blumpkin at a Staten Island Burger King in 1991'.\"\nClaim: \"During a meeting of the Young Republicans Club of New York, Santos told a break out strategy session group that he possessed a near-legendary 'super long Director's cut' of the 1984 David Lynch version of Dune that his cousin Amber taped off Cinemax back in like, 1987. According to Santos, this version features a scene of actress Sean Young topless.\"\n*Claim: \"During an August press conference, Santos deviated from his prepared notes to regale the audience with his account of being a toddler stuck down a well in East Texas.\"", ">\n\nIt’s so sad that I can’t tell if this post is satire or not.", ">\n\nI was thinking the same thing.", ">\n\nGeorge Santos next claim: \"I never claimed to be Christian. My friend Ian had just farted, I said \"Christ, IAN.\"", ">\n\nWhy vote for someone you don’t know you trust. \nVote for someone you KNOW you can’t trust”-George Santos political slogan when is is made the Republican candidate for president.", ">\n\nIt’s not a bad slogan in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps too on the nose for politicians though.", ">\n\nDude, just resign. You got caught lying over and over again. Admit it, apologize, say “the appropriate thing for me to do is to resign,” and then resign. Do what’s right for the people you claim to want to be a voice for and give them a real voice.", ">\n\nWhy would he resign? It’s unlikely he’s going to face serious repercussions from this, maybe a small fine that will be paid by the GOP to ensure he’s a good boi who’s very quiet and votes as he’s told to. \nAnd after 1 term he’ll have the incumbent advantage and a solid conservative voting record.", ">\n\nThe scariest things about all of this is that Santos WON. He's not a good liar. He openly contradicted himself. His lies were easily proven to be lies. But he still won. \nThe GOP has sunk to a new low with candidates like Santos and Herschel Walker. But what is really disturbing is that Santos won, and Walker came close to winning twice.", ">\n\nIt's because people only vote for the D or the R. Congressional votes are so partisan now that each election win for a party is a guaranteed vote for the party's agenda.\nThese idiots aren't expected to govern. They're just rubber stamps for their party.", ">\n\nI'm expecting him to disappear once the holodeck glitches out.", ">\n\nNah. Holodecks are pretty reliable to avoid that. Maybe we could just ask it to disable the George Santos holoprogram?", ">\n\n“NOTE: The Santos hologram lies. Do not listen to it.”", ">\n\nHe should be the next republican presidential candidate. He represents the party well", ">\n\nIf only there was some profession that would out these fraudsters before they get elected to office.", ">\n\nGeorge Costanzos.", ">\n\n\"It's not a lie if you believe it!\"", ">\n\nHe lent his campaign 700k, someone needs to find the source of that money. Bet it runs right to moscow", ">\n\nI’m waiting for the Scooby-Doo mask to come off and reveal Santos was actually Andy Dick this whole time.", ">\n\nClaimed his mom died on December 23rd and 9/11 on Twitter. It’s like he’s using life like most people use Reddit", ">\n\nAre you trying to say the things people say on reddit aren't true?!?!", ">\n\nNext claim: \"Y'all didn't know I was an agent?\"", ">\n\nThis will cost me downvotes, but it has to be said. In politics, It is not illegal to lie. He ran a successful campaign, and as far as legality is concerned, that’s all that matters. There is also no way to remove him without a recall, and Democrats know that they will lose if they try. There is nothing that can be done until he is voted out of office." ]

[ "Republicans and being investigated...SO HOT RIGHT NOW", ">\n\nConsequences would be so much hotter.", ">\n\nGeQrge SantQs looks like Kyle Rittenhouse grew up and then came back from a post apocalyptic future where absolute truth no longer exists.", ">\n\n\"New revelations about possible misinformation, malfeasance, and outright lying has rocked the Rep.-elect's office mere weeks before he is sworn into service, a move GOP strategists claim is a 'cynical ploy' to derail the ascendancy of would-be Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy. Fact checkers at the New York Times have cast doubt upon the following claims made by Santos:\n*Claim: Santos says he 'hacked his Playstation' and found a code to make Lara Croft nude in Tomb Raider 2, 'and you can see her nipples and everything. When pressed for evidence, Santos said it only works on the 'first alpha generation of Playstation consoles that were really quickly yanked out of stores in 1995 and given free replacements by Sony, who in turn covered this up by claiming the originals would catch fire really easily'.\"\n*Claim: In March 2003 Santos told an audience he 'one time got both Boardwalk and Park Place in the McDonalds Monopoly game from the same Diet Coke, but his cousin Tommy was a 'huge dick' and threw away their trash while Santos went to the front counter to order a Filet o' Fish.\"\n*Claim: In a 2019 diatribe, Santos told a Kiwanis Club audience he 'is not allowed to take \"normal\" karate classes' because his Uncle Craig who was in 'Nam showed him some of the things 'he learned from some guys who do Thai kick-boxing' and thus is 'too dangerous' to the other students.\"\nClaim: \"Santos told a group of National Honor Students during a routine photo op that he 'invented the blumpkin at a Staten Island Burger King in 1991'.\"\nClaim: \"During a meeting of the Young Republicans Club of New York, Santos told a break out strategy session group that he possessed a near-legendary 'super long Director's cut' of the 1984 David Lynch version of Dune that his cousin Amber taped off Cinemax back in like, 1987. According to Santos, this version features a scene of actress Sean Young topless.\"\n*Claim: \"During an August press conference, Santos deviated from his prepared notes to regale the audience with his account of being a toddler stuck down a well in East Texas.\"", ">\n\nIt’s so sad that I can’t tell if this post is satire or not.", ">\n\nI was thinking the same thing.", ">\n\nGeorge Santos next claim: \"I never claimed to be Christian. My friend Ian had just farted, I said \"Christ, IAN.\"", ">\n\nWhy vote for someone you don’t know you trust. \nVote for someone you KNOW you can’t trust”-George Santos political slogan when is is made the Republican candidate for president.", ">\n\nIt’s not a bad slogan in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps too on the nose for politicians though.", ">\n\nDude, just resign. You got caught lying over and over again. Admit it, apologize, say “the appropriate thing for me to do is to resign,” and then resign. Do what’s right for the people you claim to want to be a voice for and give them a real voice.", ">\n\nWhy would he resign? It’s unlikely he’s going to face serious repercussions from this, maybe a small fine that will be paid by the GOP to ensure he’s a good boi who’s very quiet and votes as he’s told to. \nAnd after 1 term he’ll have the incumbent advantage and a solid conservative voting record.", ">\n\nThe scariest things about all of this is that Santos WON. He's not a good liar. He openly contradicted himself. His lies were easily proven to be lies. But he still won. \nThe GOP has sunk to a new low with candidates like Santos and Herschel Walker. But what is really disturbing is that Santos won, and Walker came close to winning twice.", ">\n\nIt's because people only vote for the D or the R. Congressional votes are so partisan now that each election win for a party is a guaranteed vote for the party's agenda.\nThese idiots aren't expected to govern. They're just rubber stamps for their party.", ">\n\nI'm expecting him to disappear once the holodeck glitches out.", ">\n\nNah. Holodecks are pretty reliable to avoid that. Maybe we could just ask it to disable the George Santos holoprogram?", ">\n\n“NOTE: The Santos hologram lies. Do not listen to it.”", ">\n\nHe should be the next republican presidential candidate. He represents the party well", ">\n\nIf only there was some profession that would out these fraudsters before they get elected to office.", ">\n\nGeorge Costanzos.", ">\n\n\"It's not a lie if you believe it!\"", ">\n\nHe lent his campaign 700k, someone needs to find the source of that money. Bet it runs right to moscow", ">\n\nI’m waiting for the Scooby-Doo mask to come off and reveal Santos was actually Andy Dick this whole time.", ">\n\nClaimed his mom died on December 23rd and 9/11 on Twitter. It’s like he’s using life like most people use Reddit", ">\n\nAre you trying to say the things people say on reddit aren't true?!?!", ">\n\nNext claim: \"Y'all didn't know I was an agent?\"", ">\n\nThis will cost me downvotes, but it has to be said. In politics, It is not illegal to lie. He ran a successful campaign, and as far as legality is concerned, that’s all that matters. There is also no way to remove him without a recall, and Democrats know that they will lose if they try. There is nothing that can be done until he is voted out of office.", ">\n\nUnless he took foreign money to run, which is illegal." ]

[ "Republicans and being investigated...SO HOT RIGHT NOW", ">\n\nConsequences would be so much hotter.", ">\n\nGeQrge SantQs looks like Kyle Rittenhouse grew up and then came back from a post apocalyptic future where absolute truth no longer exists.", ">\n\n\"New revelations about possible misinformation, malfeasance, and outright lying has rocked the Rep.-elect's office mere weeks before he is sworn into service, a move GOP strategists claim is a 'cynical ploy' to derail the ascendancy of would-be Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy. Fact checkers at the New York Times have cast doubt upon the following claims made by Santos:\n*Claim: Santos says he 'hacked his Playstation' and found a code to make Lara Croft nude in Tomb Raider 2, 'and you can see her nipples and everything. When pressed for evidence, Santos said it only works on the 'first alpha generation of Playstation consoles that were really quickly yanked out of stores in 1995 and given free replacements by Sony, who in turn covered this up by claiming the originals would catch fire really easily'.\"\n*Claim: In March 2003 Santos told an audience he 'one time got both Boardwalk and Park Place in the McDonalds Monopoly game from the same Diet Coke, but his cousin Tommy was a 'huge dick' and threw away their trash while Santos went to the front counter to order a Filet o' Fish.\"\n*Claim: In a 2019 diatribe, Santos told a Kiwanis Club audience he 'is not allowed to take \"normal\" karate classes' because his Uncle Craig who was in 'Nam showed him some of the things 'he learned from some guys who do Thai kick-boxing' and thus is 'too dangerous' to the other students.\"\nClaim: \"Santos told a group of National Honor Students during a routine photo op that he 'invented the blumpkin at a Staten Island Burger King in 1991'.\"\nClaim: \"During a meeting of the Young Republicans Club of New York, Santos told a break out strategy session group that he possessed a near-legendary 'super long Director's cut' of the 1984 David Lynch version of Dune that his cousin Amber taped off Cinemax back in like, 1987. According to Santos, this version features a scene of actress Sean Young topless.\"\n*Claim: \"During an August press conference, Santos deviated from his prepared notes to regale the audience with his account of being a toddler stuck down a well in East Texas.\"", ">\n\nIt’s so sad that I can’t tell if this post is satire or not.", ">\n\nI was thinking the same thing.", ">\n\nGeorge Santos next claim: \"I never claimed to be Christian. My friend Ian had just farted, I said \"Christ, IAN.\"", ">\n\nWhy vote for someone you don’t know you trust. \nVote for someone you KNOW you can’t trust”-George Santos political slogan when is is made the Republican candidate for president.", ">\n\nIt’s not a bad slogan in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps too on the nose for politicians though.", ">\n\nDude, just resign. You got caught lying over and over again. Admit it, apologize, say “the appropriate thing for me to do is to resign,” and then resign. Do what’s right for the people you claim to want to be a voice for and give them a real voice.", ">\n\nWhy would he resign? It’s unlikely he’s going to face serious repercussions from this, maybe a small fine that will be paid by the GOP to ensure he’s a good boi who’s very quiet and votes as he’s told to. \nAnd after 1 term he’ll have the incumbent advantage and a solid conservative voting record.", ">\n\nThe scariest things about all of this is that Santos WON. He's not a good liar. He openly contradicted himself. His lies were easily proven to be lies. But he still won. \nThe GOP has sunk to a new low with candidates like Santos and Herschel Walker. But what is really disturbing is that Santos won, and Walker came close to winning twice.", ">\n\nIt's because people only vote for the D or the R. Congressional votes are so partisan now that each election win for a party is a guaranteed vote for the party's agenda.\nThese idiots aren't expected to govern. They're just rubber stamps for their party.", ">\n\nI'm expecting him to disappear once the holodeck glitches out.", ">\n\nNah. Holodecks are pretty reliable to avoid that. Maybe we could just ask it to disable the George Santos holoprogram?", ">\n\n“NOTE: The Santos hologram lies. Do not listen to it.”", ">\n\nHe should be the next republican presidential candidate. He represents the party well", ">\n\nIf only there was some profession that would out these fraudsters before they get elected to office.", ">\n\nGeorge Costanzos.", ">\n\n\"It's not a lie if you believe it!\"", ">\n\nHe lent his campaign 700k, someone needs to find the source of that money. Bet it runs right to moscow", ">\n\nI’m waiting for the Scooby-Doo mask to come off and reveal Santos was actually Andy Dick this whole time.", ">\n\nClaimed his mom died on December 23rd and 9/11 on Twitter. It’s like he’s using life like most people use Reddit", ">\n\nAre you trying to say the things people say on reddit aren't true?!?!", ">\n\nNext claim: \"Y'all didn't know I was an agent?\"", ">\n\nThis will cost me downvotes, but it has to be said. In politics, It is not illegal to lie. He ran a successful campaign, and as far as legality is concerned, that’s all that matters. There is also no way to remove him without a recall, and Democrats know that they will lose if they try. There is nothing that can be done until he is voted out of office.", ">\n\nUnless he took foreign money to run, which is illegal.", ">\n\nOr if he is not a US citizen." ]

[ "Republicans and being investigated...SO HOT RIGHT NOW", ">\n\nConsequences would be so much hotter.", ">\n\nGeQrge SantQs looks like Kyle Rittenhouse grew up and then came back from a post apocalyptic future where absolute truth no longer exists.", ">\n\n\"New revelations about possible misinformation, malfeasance, and outright lying has rocked the Rep.-elect's office mere weeks before he is sworn into service, a move GOP strategists claim is a 'cynical ploy' to derail the ascendancy of would-be Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy. Fact checkers at the New York Times have cast doubt upon the following claims made by Santos:\n*Claim: Santos says he 'hacked his Playstation' and found a code to make Lara Croft nude in Tomb Raider 2, 'and you can see her nipples and everything. When pressed for evidence, Santos said it only works on the 'first alpha generation of Playstation consoles that were really quickly yanked out of stores in 1995 and given free replacements by Sony, who in turn covered this up by claiming the originals would catch fire really easily'.\"\n*Claim: In March 2003 Santos told an audience he 'one time got both Boardwalk and Park Place in the McDonalds Monopoly game from the same Diet Coke, but his cousin Tommy was a 'huge dick' and threw away their trash while Santos went to the front counter to order a Filet o' Fish.\"\n*Claim: In a 2019 diatribe, Santos told a Kiwanis Club audience he 'is not allowed to take \"normal\" karate classes' because his Uncle Craig who was in 'Nam showed him some of the things 'he learned from some guys who do Thai kick-boxing' and thus is 'too dangerous' to the other students.\"\nClaim: \"Santos told a group of National Honor Students during a routine photo op that he 'invented the blumpkin at a Staten Island Burger King in 1991'.\"\nClaim: \"During a meeting of the Young Republicans Club of New York, Santos told a break out strategy session group that he possessed a near-legendary 'super long Director's cut' of the 1984 David Lynch version of Dune that his cousin Amber taped off Cinemax back in like, 1987. According to Santos, this version features a scene of actress Sean Young topless.\"\n*Claim: \"During an August press conference, Santos deviated from his prepared notes to regale the audience with his account of being a toddler stuck down a well in East Texas.\"", ">\n\nIt’s so sad that I can’t tell if this post is satire or not.", ">\n\nI was thinking the same thing.", ">\n\nGeorge Santos next claim: \"I never claimed to be Christian. My friend Ian had just farted, I said \"Christ, IAN.\"", ">\n\nWhy vote for someone you don’t know you trust. \nVote for someone you KNOW you can’t trust”-George Santos political slogan when is is made the Republican candidate for president.", ">\n\nIt’s not a bad slogan in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps too on the nose for politicians though.", ">\n\nDude, just resign. You got caught lying over and over again. Admit it, apologize, say “the appropriate thing for me to do is to resign,” and then resign. Do what’s right for the people you claim to want to be a voice for and give them a real voice.", ">\n\nWhy would he resign? It’s unlikely he’s going to face serious repercussions from this, maybe a small fine that will be paid by the GOP to ensure he’s a good boi who’s very quiet and votes as he’s told to. \nAnd after 1 term he’ll have the incumbent advantage and a solid conservative voting record.", ">\n\nThe scariest things about all of this is that Santos WON. He's not a good liar. He openly contradicted himself. His lies were easily proven to be lies. But he still won. \nThe GOP has sunk to a new low with candidates like Santos and Herschel Walker. But what is really disturbing is that Santos won, and Walker came close to winning twice.", ">\n\nIt's because people only vote for the D or the R. Congressional votes are so partisan now that each election win for a party is a guaranteed vote for the party's agenda.\nThese idiots aren't expected to govern. They're just rubber stamps for their party.", ">\n\nI'm expecting him to disappear once the holodeck glitches out.", ">\n\nNah. Holodecks are pretty reliable to avoid that. Maybe we could just ask it to disable the George Santos holoprogram?", ">\n\n“NOTE: The Santos hologram lies. Do not listen to it.”", ">\n\nHe should be the next republican presidential candidate. He represents the party well", ">\n\nIf only there was some profession that would out these fraudsters before they get elected to office.", ">\n\nGeorge Costanzos.", ">\n\n\"It's not a lie if you believe it!\"", ">\n\nHe lent his campaign 700k, someone needs to find the source of that money. Bet it runs right to moscow", ">\n\nI’m waiting for the Scooby-Doo mask to come off and reveal Santos was actually Andy Dick this whole time.", ">\n\nClaimed his mom died on December 23rd and 9/11 on Twitter. It’s like he’s using life like most people use Reddit", ">\n\nAre you trying to say the things people say on reddit aren't true?!?!", ">\n\nNext claim: \"Y'all didn't know I was an agent?\"", ">\n\nThis will cost me downvotes, but it has to be said. In politics, It is not illegal to lie. He ran a successful campaign, and as far as legality is concerned, that’s all that matters. There is also no way to remove him without a recall, and Democrats know that they will lose if they try. There is nothing that can be done until he is voted out of office.", ">\n\nUnless he took foreign money to run, which is illegal.", ">\n\nOr if he is not a US citizen.", ">\n\nI never heard of this guy until he became popular on this sub a couple of days ago." ]

[ "Republicans and being investigated...SO HOT RIGHT NOW", ">\n\nConsequences would be so much hotter.", ">\n\nGeQrge SantQs looks like Kyle Rittenhouse grew up and then came back from a post apocalyptic future where absolute truth no longer exists.", ">\n\n\"New revelations about possible misinformation, malfeasance, and outright lying has rocked the Rep.-elect's office mere weeks before he is sworn into service, a move GOP strategists claim is a 'cynical ploy' to derail the ascendancy of would-be Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy. Fact checkers at the New York Times have cast doubt upon the following claims made by Santos:\n*Claim: Santos says he 'hacked his Playstation' and found a code to make Lara Croft nude in Tomb Raider 2, 'and you can see her nipples and everything. When pressed for evidence, Santos said it only works on the 'first alpha generation of Playstation consoles that were really quickly yanked out of stores in 1995 and given free replacements by Sony, who in turn covered this up by claiming the originals would catch fire really easily'.\"\n*Claim: In March 2003 Santos told an audience he 'one time got both Boardwalk and Park Place in the McDonalds Monopoly game from the same Diet Coke, but his cousin Tommy was a 'huge dick' and threw away their trash while Santos went to the front counter to order a Filet o' Fish.\"\n*Claim: In a 2019 diatribe, Santos told a Kiwanis Club audience he 'is not allowed to take \"normal\" karate classes' because his Uncle Craig who was in 'Nam showed him some of the things 'he learned from some guys who do Thai kick-boxing' and thus is 'too dangerous' to the other students.\"\nClaim: \"Santos told a group of National Honor Students during a routine photo op that he 'invented the blumpkin at a Staten Island Burger King in 1991'.\"\nClaim: \"During a meeting of the Young Republicans Club of New York, Santos told a break out strategy session group that he possessed a near-legendary 'super long Director's cut' of the 1984 David Lynch version of Dune that his cousin Amber taped off Cinemax back in like, 1987. According to Santos, this version features a scene of actress Sean Young topless.\"\n*Claim: \"During an August press conference, Santos deviated from his prepared notes to regale the audience with his account of being a toddler stuck down a well in East Texas.\"", ">\n\nIt’s so sad that I can’t tell if this post is satire or not.", ">\n\nI was thinking the same thing.", ">\n\nGeorge Santos next claim: \"I never claimed to be Christian. My friend Ian had just farted, I said \"Christ, IAN.\"", ">\n\nWhy vote for someone you don’t know you trust. \nVote for someone you KNOW you can’t trust”-George Santos political slogan when is is made the Republican candidate for president.", ">\n\nIt’s not a bad slogan in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps too on the nose for politicians though.", ">\n\nDude, just resign. You got caught lying over and over again. Admit it, apologize, say “the appropriate thing for me to do is to resign,” and then resign. Do what’s right for the people you claim to want to be a voice for and give them a real voice.", ">\n\nWhy would he resign? It’s unlikely he’s going to face serious repercussions from this, maybe a small fine that will be paid by the GOP to ensure he’s a good boi who’s very quiet and votes as he’s told to. \nAnd after 1 term he’ll have the incumbent advantage and a solid conservative voting record.", ">\n\nThe scariest things about all of this is that Santos WON. He's not a good liar. He openly contradicted himself. His lies were easily proven to be lies. But he still won. \nThe GOP has sunk to a new low with candidates like Santos and Herschel Walker. But what is really disturbing is that Santos won, and Walker came close to winning twice.", ">\n\nIt's because people only vote for the D or the R. Congressional votes are so partisan now that each election win for a party is a guaranteed vote for the party's agenda.\nThese idiots aren't expected to govern. They're just rubber stamps for their party.", ">\n\nI'm expecting him to disappear once the holodeck glitches out.", ">\n\nNah. Holodecks are pretty reliable to avoid that. Maybe we could just ask it to disable the George Santos holoprogram?", ">\n\n“NOTE: The Santos hologram lies. Do not listen to it.”", ">\n\nHe should be the next republican presidential candidate. He represents the party well", ">\n\nIf only there was some profession that would out these fraudsters before they get elected to office.", ">\n\nGeorge Costanzos.", ">\n\n\"It's not a lie if you believe it!\"", ">\n\nHe lent his campaign 700k, someone needs to find the source of that money. Bet it runs right to moscow", ">\n\nI’m waiting for the Scooby-Doo mask to come off and reveal Santos was actually Andy Dick this whole time.", ">\n\nClaimed his mom died on December 23rd and 9/11 on Twitter. It’s like he’s using life like most people use Reddit", ">\n\nAre you trying to say the things people say on reddit aren't true?!?!", ">\n\nNext claim: \"Y'all didn't know I was an agent?\"", ">\n\nThis will cost me downvotes, but it has to be said. In politics, It is not illegal to lie. He ran a successful campaign, and as far as legality is concerned, that’s all that matters. There is also no way to remove him without a recall, and Democrats know that they will lose if they try. There is nothing that can be done until he is voted out of office.", ">\n\nUnless he took foreign money to run, which is illegal.", ">\n\nOr if he is not a US citizen.", ">\n\nI never heard of this guy until he became popular on this sub a couple of days ago.", ">\n\nOh leave him alone. Everyone knows he’s republican" ]

[ "Republicans and being investigated...SO HOT RIGHT NOW", ">\n\nConsequences would be so much hotter.", ">\n\nGeQrge SantQs looks like Kyle Rittenhouse grew up and then came back from a post apocalyptic future where absolute truth no longer exists.", ">\n\n\"New revelations about possible misinformation, malfeasance, and outright lying has rocked the Rep.-elect's office mere weeks before he is sworn into service, a move GOP strategists claim is a 'cynical ploy' to derail the ascendancy of would-be Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy. Fact checkers at the New York Times have cast doubt upon the following claims made by Santos:\n*Claim: Santos says he 'hacked his Playstation' and found a code to make Lara Croft nude in Tomb Raider 2, 'and you can see her nipples and everything. When pressed for evidence, Santos said it only works on the 'first alpha generation of Playstation consoles that were really quickly yanked out of stores in 1995 and given free replacements by Sony, who in turn covered this up by claiming the originals would catch fire really easily'.\"\n*Claim: In March 2003 Santos told an audience he 'one time got both Boardwalk and Park Place in the McDonalds Monopoly game from the same Diet Coke, but his cousin Tommy was a 'huge dick' and threw away their trash while Santos went to the front counter to order a Filet o' Fish.\"\n*Claim: In a 2019 diatribe, Santos told a Kiwanis Club audience he 'is not allowed to take \"normal\" karate classes' because his Uncle Craig who was in 'Nam showed him some of the things 'he learned from some guys who do Thai kick-boxing' and thus is 'too dangerous' to the other students.\"\nClaim: \"Santos told a group of National Honor Students during a routine photo op that he 'invented the blumpkin at a Staten Island Burger King in 1991'.\"\nClaim: \"During a meeting of the Young Republicans Club of New York, Santos told a break out strategy session group that he possessed a near-legendary 'super long Director's cut' of the 1984 David Lynch version of Dune that his cousin Amber taped off Cinemax back in like, 1987. According to Santos, this version features a scene of actress Sean Young topless.\"\n*Claim: \"During an August press conference, Santos deviated from his prepared notes to regale the audience with his account of being a toddler stuck down a well in East Texas.\"", ">\n\nIt’s so sad that I can’t tell if this post is satire or not.", ">\n\nI was thinking the same thing.", ">\n\nGeorge Santos next claim: \"I never claimed to be Christian. My friend Ian had just farted, I said \"Christ, IAN.\"", ">\n\nWhy vote for someone you don’t know you trust. \nVote for someone you KNOW you can’t trust”-George Santos political slogan when is is made the Republican candidate for president.", ">\n\nIt’s not a bad slogan in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps too on the nose for politicians though.", ">\n\nDude, just resign. You got caught lying over and over again. Admit it, apologize, say “the appropriate thing for me to do is to resign,” and then resign. Do what’s right for the people you claim to want to be a voice for and give them a real voice.", ">\n\nWhy would he resign? It’s unlikely he’s going to face serious repercussions from this, maybe a small fine that will be paid by the GOP to ensure he’s a good boi who’s very quiet and votes as he’s told to. \nAnd after 1 term he’ll have the incumbent advantage and a solid conservative voting record.", ">\n\nThe scariest things about all of this is that Santos WON. He's not a good liar. He openly contradicted himself. His lies were easily proven to be lies. But he still won. \nThe GOP has sunk to a new low with candidates like Santos and Herschel Walker. But what is really disturbing is that Santos won, and Walker came close to winning twice.", ">\n\nIt's because people only vote for the D or the R. Congressional votes are so partisan now that each election win for a party is a guaranteed vote for the party's agenda.\nThese idiots aren't expected to govern. They're just rubber stamps for their party.", ">\n\nI'm expecting him to disappear once the holodeck glitches out.", ">\n\nNah. Holodecks are pretty reliable to avoid that. Maybe we could just ask it to disable the George Santos holoprogram?", ">\n\n“NOTE: The Santos hologram lies. Do not listen to it.”", ">\n\nHe should be the next republican presidential candidate. He represents the party well", ">\n\nIf only there was some profession that would out these fraudsters before they get elected to office.", ">\n\nGeorge Costanzos.", ">\n\n\"It's not a lie if you believe it!\"", ">\n\nHe lent his campaign 700k, someone needs to find the source of that money. Bet it runs right to moscow", ">\n\nI’m waiting for the Scooby-Doo mask to come off and reveal Santos was actually Andy Dick this whole time.", ">\n\nClaimed his mom died on December 23rd and 9/11 on Twitter. It’s like he’s using life like most people use Reddit", ">\n\nAre you trying to say the things people say on reddit aren't true?!?!", ">\n\nNext claim: \"Y'all didn't know I was an agent?\"", ">\n\nThis will cost me downvotes, but it has to be said. In politics, It is not illegal to lie. He ran a successful campaign, and as far as legality is concerned, that’s all that matters. There is also no way to remove him without a recall, and Democrats know that they will lose if they try. There is nothing that can be done until he is voted out of office.", ">\n\nUnless he took foreign money to run, which is illegal.", ">\n\nOr if he is not a US citizen.", ">\n\nI never heard of this guy until he became popular on this sub a couple of days ago.", ">\n\nOh leave him alone. Everyone knows he’s republican", ">\n\nHis Dick is 2.5 inches long and he is not married to a sheep!!" ]

[ "Republicans and being investigated...SO HOT RIGHT NOW", ">\n\nConsequences would be so much hotter.", ">\n\nGeQrge SantQs looks like Kyle Rittenhouse grew up and then came back from a post apocalyptic future where absolute truth no longer exists.", ">\n\n\"New revelations about possible misinformation, malfeasance, and outright lying has rocked the Rep.-elect's office mere weeks before he is sworn into service, a move GOP strategists claim is a 'cynical ploy' to derail the ascendancy of would-be Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy. Fact checkers at the New York Times have cast doubt upon the following claims made by Santos:\n*Claim: Santos says he 'hacked his Playstation' and found a code to make Lara Croft nude in Tomb Raider 2, 'and you can see her nipples and everything. When pressed for evidence, Santos said it only works on the 'first alpha generation of Playstation consoles that were really quickly yanked out of stores in 1995 and given free replacements by Sony, who in turn covered this up by claiming the originals would catch fire really easily'.\"\n*Claim: In March 2003 Santos told an audience he 'one time got both Boardwalk and Park Place in the McDonalds Monopoly game from the same Diet Coke, but his cousin Tommy was a 'huge dick' and threw away their trash while Santos went to the front counter to order a Filet o' Fish.\"\n*Claim: In a 2019 diatribe, Santos told a Kiwanis Club audience he 'is not allowed to take \"normal\" karate classes' because his Uncle Craig who was in 'Nam showed him some of the things 'he learned from some guys who do Thai kick-boxing' and thus is 'too dangerous' to the other students.\"\nClaim: \"Santos told a group of National Honor Students during a routine photo op that he 'invented the blumpkin at a Staten Island Burger King in 1991'.\"\nClaim: \"During a meeting of the Young Republicans Club of New York, Santos told a break out strategy session group that he possessed a near-legendary 'super long Director's cut' of the 1984 David Lynch version of Dune that his cousin Amber taped off Cinemax back in like, 1987. According to Santos, this version features a scene of actress Sean Young topless.\"\n*Claim: \"During an August press conference, Santos deviated from his prepared notes to regale the audience with his account of being a toddler stuck down a well in East Texas.\"", ">\n\nIt’s so sad that I can’t tell if this post is satire or not.", ">\n\nI was thinking the same thing.", ">\n\nGeorge Santos next claim: \"I never claimed to be Christian. My friend Ian had just farted, I said \"Christ, IAN.\"", ">\n\nWhy vote for someone you don’t know you trust. \nVote for someone you KNOW you can’t trust”-George Santos political slogan when is is made the Republican candidate for president.", ">\n\nIt’s not a bad slogan in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps too on the nose for politicians though.", ">\n\nDude, just resign. You got caught lying over and over again. Admit it, apologize, say “the appropriate thing for me to do is to resign,” and then resign. Do what’s right for the people you claim to want to be a voice for and give them a real voice.", ">\n\nWhy would he resign? It’s unlikely he’s going to face serious repercussions from this, maybe a small fine that will be paid by the GOP to ensure he’s a good boi who’s very quiet and votes as he’s told to. \nAnd after 1 term he’ll have the incumbent advantage and a solid conservative voting record.", ">\n\nThe scariest things about all of this is that Santos WON. He's not a good liar. He openly contradicted himself. His lies were easily proven to be lies. But he still won. \nThe GOP has sunk to a new low with candidates like Santos and Herschel Walker. But what is really disturbing is that Santos won, and Walker came close to winning twice.", ">\n\nIt's because people only vote for the D or the R. Congressional votes are so partisan now that each election win for a party is a guaranteed vote for the party's agenda.\nThese idiots aren't expected to govern. They're just rubber stamps for their party.", ">\n\nI'm expecting him to disappear once the holodeck glitches out.", ">\n\nNah. Holodecks are pretty reliable to avoid that. Maybe we could just ask it to disable the George Santos holoprogram?", ">\n\n“NOTE: The Santos hologram lies. Do not listen to it.”", ">\n\nHe should be the next republican presidential candidate. He represents the party well", ">\n\nIf only there was some profession that would out these fraudsters before they get elected to office.", ">\n\nGeorge Costanzos.", ">\n\n\"It's not a lie if you believe it!\"", ">\n\nHe lent his campaign 700k, someone needs to find the source of that money. Bet it runs right to moscow", ">\n\nI’m waiting for the Scooby-Doo mask to come off and reveal Santos was actually Andy Dick this whole time.", ">\n\nClaimed his mom died on December 23rd and 9/11 on Twitter. It’s like he’s using life like most people use Reddit", ">\n\nAre you trying to say the things people say on reddit aren't true?!?!", ">\n\nNext claim: \"Y'all didn't know I was an agent?\"", ">\n\nThis will cost me downvotes, but it has to be said. In politics, It is not illegal to lie. He ran a successful campaign, and as far as legality is concerned, that’s all that matters. There is also no way to remove him without a recall, and Democrats know that they will lose if they try. There is nothing that can be done until he is voted out of office.", ">\n\nUnless he took foreign money to run, which is illegal.", ">\n\nOr if he is not a US citizen.", ">\n\nI never heard of this guy until he became popular on this sub a couple of days ago.", ">\n\nOh leave him alone. Everyone knows he’s republican", ">\n\nHis Dick is 2.5 inches long and he is not married to a sheep!!", ">\n\nThese are the days of our lives!" ]

[ "Republicans and being investigated...SO HOT RIGHT NOW", ">\n\nConsequences would be so much hotter.", ">\n\nGeQrge SantQs looks like Kyle Rittenhouse grew up and then came back from a post apocalyptic future where absolute truth no longer exists.", ">\n\n\"New revelations about possible misinformation, malfeasance, and outright lying has rocked the Rep.-elect's office mere weeks before he is sworn into service, a move GOP strategists claim is a 'cynical ploy' to derail the ascendancy of would-be Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy. Fact checkers at the New York Times have cast doubt upon the following claims made by Santos:\n*Claim: Santos says he 'hacked his Playstation' and found a code to make Lara Croft nude in Tomb Raider 2, 'and you can see her nipples and everything. When pressed for evidence, Santos said it only works on the 'first alpha generation of Playstation consoles that were really quickly yanked out of stores in 1995 and given free replacements by Sony, who in turn covered this up by claiming the originals would catch fire really easily'.\"\n*Claim: In March 2003 Santos told an audience he 'one time got both Boardwalk and Park Place in the McDonalds Monopoly game from the same Diet Coke, but his cousin Tommy was a 'huge dick' and threw away their trash while Santos went to the front counter to order a Filet o' Fish.\"\n*Claim: In a 2019 diatribe, Santos told a Kiwanis Club audience he 'is not allowed to take \"normal\" karate classes' because his Uncle Craig who was in 'Nam showed him some of the things 'he learned from some guys who do Thai kick-boxing' and thus is 'too dangerous' to the other students.\"\nClaim: \"Santos told a group of National Honor Students during a routine photo op that he 'invented the blumpkin at a Staten Island Burger King in 1991'.\"\nClaim: \"During a meeting of the Young Republicans Club of New York, Santos told a break out strategy session group that he possessed a near-legendary 'super long Director's cut' of the 1984 David Lynch version of Dune that his cousin Amber taped off Cinemax back in like, 1987. According to Santos, this version features a scene of actress Sean Young topless.\"\n*Claim: \"During an August press conference, Santos deviated from his prepared notes to regale the audience with his account of being a toddler stuck down a well in East Texas.\"", ">\n\nIt’s so sad that I can’t tell if this post is satire or not.", ">\n\nI was thinking the same thing.", ">\n\nGeorge Santos next claim: \"I never claimed to be Christian. My friend Ian had just farted, I said \"Christ, IAN.\"", ">\n\nWhy vote for someone you don’t know you trust. \nVote for someone you KNOW you can’t trust”-George Santos political slogan when is is made the Republican candidate for president.", ">\n\nIt’s not a bad slogan in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps too on the nose for politicians though.", ">\n\nDude, just resign. You got caught lying over and over again. Admit it, apologize, say “the appropriate thing for me to do is to resign,” and then resign. Do what’s right for the people you claim to want to be a voice for and give them a real voice.", ">\n\nWhy would he resign? It’s unlikely he’s going to face serious repercussions from this, maybe a small fine that will be paid by the GOP to ensure he’s a good boi who’s very quiet and votes as he’s told to. \nAnd after 1 term he’ll have the incumbent advantage and a solid conservative voting record.", ">\n\nThe scariest things about all of this is that Santos WON. He's not a good liar. He openly contradicted himself. His lies were easily proven to be lies. But he still won. \nThe GOP has sunk to a new low with candidates like Santos and Herschel Walker. But what is really disturbing is that Santos won, and Walker came close to winning twice.", ">\n\nIt's because people only vote for the D or the R. Congressional votes are so partisan now that each election win for a party is a guaranteed vote for the party's agenda.\nThese idiots aren't expected to govern. They're just rubber stamps for their party.", ">\n\nI'm expecting him to disappear once the holodeck glitches out.", ">\n\nNah. Holodecks are pretty reliable to avoid that. Maybe we could just ask it to disable the George Santos holoprogram?", ">\n\n“NOTE: The Santos hologram lies. Do not listen to it.”", ">\n\nHe should be the next republican presidential candidate. He represents the party well", ">\n\nIf only there was some profession that would out these fraudsters before they get elected to office.", ">\n\nGeorge Costanzos.", ">\n\n\"It's not a lie if you believe it!\"", ">\n\nHe lent his campaign 700k, someone needs to find the source of that money. Bet it runs right to moscow", ">\n\nI’m waiting for the Scooby-Doo mask to come off and reveal Santos was actually Andy Dick this whole time.", ">\n\nClaimed his mom died on December 23rd and 9/11 on Twitter. It’s like he’s using life like most people use Reddit", ">\n\nAre you trying to say the things people say on reddit aren't true?!?!", ">\n\nNext claim: \"Y'all didn't know I was an agent?\"", ">\n\nThis will cost me downvotes, but it has to be said. In politics, It is not illegal to lie. He ran a successful campaign, and as far as legality is concerned, that’s all that matters. There is also no way to remove him without a recall, and Democrats know that they will lose if they try. There is nothing that can be done until he is voted out of office.", ">\n\nUnless he took foreign money to run, which is illegal.", ">\n\nOr if he is not a US citizen.", ">\n\nI never heard of this guy until he became popular on this sub a couple of days ago.", ">\n\nOh leave him alone. Everyone knows he’s republican", ">\n\nHis Dick is 2.5 inches long and he is not married to a sheep!!", ">\n\nThese are the days of our lives!", ">\n\nNever trust a man in a tunic." ]

[ "Republicans and being investigated...SO HOT RIGHT NOW", ">\n\nConsequences would be so much hotter.", ">\n\nGeQrge SantQs looks like Kyle Rittenhouse grew up and then came back from a post apocalyptic future where absolute truth no longer exists.", ">\n\n\"New revelations about possible misinformation, malfeasance, and outright lying has rocked the Rep.-elect's office mere weeks before he is sworn into service, a move GOP strategists claim is a 'cynical ploy' to derail the ascendancy of would-be Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy. Fact checkers at the New York Times have cast doubt upon the following claims made by Santos:\n*Claim: Santos says he 'hacked his Playstation' and found a code to make Lara Croft nude in Tomb Raider 2, 'and you can see her nipples and everything. When pressed for evidence, Santos said it only works on the 'first alpha generation of Playstation consoles that were really quickly yanked out of stores in 1995 and given free replacements by Sony, who in turn covered this up by claiming the originals would catch fire really easily'.\"\n*Claim: In March 2003 Santos told an audience he 'one time got both Boardwalk and Park Place in the McDonalds Monopoly game from the same Diet Coke, but his cousin Tommy was a 'huge dick' and threw away their trash while Santos went to the front counter to order a Filet o' Fish.\"\n*Claim: In a 2019 diatribe, Santos told a Kiwanis Club audience he 'is not allowed to take \"normal\" karate classes' because his Uncle Craig who was in 'Nam showed him some of the things 'he learned from some guys who do Thai kick-boxing' and thus is 'too dangerous' to the other students.\"\nClaim: \"Santos told a group of National Honor Students during a routine photo op that he 'invented the blumpkin at a Staten Island Burger King in 1991'.\"\nClaim: \"During a meeting of the Young Republicans Club of New York, Santos told a break out strategy session group that he possessed a near-legendary 'super long Director's cut' of the 1984 David Lynch version of Dune that his cousin Amber taped off Cinemax back in like, 1987. According to Santos, this version features a scene of actress Sean Young topless.\"\n*Claim: \"During an August press conference, Santos deviated from his prepared notes to regale the audience with his account of being a toddler stuck down a well in East Texas.\"", ">\n\nIt’s so sad that I can’t tell if this post is satire or not.", ">\n\nI was thinking the same thing.", ">\n\nGeorge Santos next claim: \"I never claimed to be Christian. My friend Ian had just farted, I said \"Christ, IAN.\"", ">\n\nWhy vote for someone you don’t know you trust. \nVote for someone you KNOW you can’t trust”-George Santos political slogan when is is made the Republican candidate for president.", ">\n\nIt’s not a bad slogan in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps too on the nose for politicians though.", ">\n\nDude, just resign. You got caught lying over and over again. Admit it, apologize, say “the appropriate thing for me to do is to resign,” and then resign. Do what’s right for the people you claim to want to be a voice for and give them a real voice.", ">\n\nWhy would he resign? It’s unlikely he’s going to face serious repercussions from this, maybe a small fine that will be paid by the GOP to ensure he’s a good boi who’s very quiet and votes as he’s told to. \nAnd after 1 term he’ll have the incumbent advantage and a solid conservative voting record.", ">\n\nThe scariest things about all of this is that Santos WON. He's not a good liar. He openly contradicted himself. His lies were easily proven to be lies. But he still won. \nThe GOP has sunk to a new low with candidates like Santos and Herschel Walker. But what is really disturbing is that Santos won, and Walker came close to winning twice.", ">\n\nIt's because people only vote for the D or the R. Congressional votes are so partisan now that each election win for a party is a guaranteed vote for the party's agenda.\nThese idiots aren't expected to govern. They're just rubber stamps for their party.", ">\n\nI'm expecting him to disappear once the holodeck glitches out.", ">\n\nNah. Holodecks are pretty reliable to avoid that. Maybe we could just ask it to disable the George Santos holoprogram?", ">\n\n“NOTE: The Santos hologram lies. Do not listen to it.”", ">\n\nHe should be the next republican presidential candidate. He represents the party well", ">\n\nIf only there was some profession that would out these fraudsters before they get elected to office.", ">\n\nGeorge Costanzos.", ">\n\n\"It's not a lie if you believe it!\"", ">\n\nHe lent his campaign 700k, someone needs to find the source of that money. Bet it runs right to moscow", ">\n\nI’m waiting for the Scooby-Doo mask to come off and reveal Santos was actually Andy Dick this whole time.", ">\n\nClaimed his mom died on December 23rd and 9/11 on Twitter. It’s like he’s using life like most people use Reddit", ">\n\nAre you trying to say the things people say on reddit aren't true?!?!", ">\n\nNext claim: \"Y'all didn't know I was an agent?\"", ">\n\nThis will cost me downvotes, but it has to be said. In politics, It is not illegal to lie. He ran a successful campaign, and as far as legality is concerned, that’s all that matters. There is also no way to remove him without a recall, and Democrats know that they will lose if they try. There is nothing that can be done until he is voted out of office.", ">\n\nUnless he took foreign money to run, which is illegal.", ">\n\nOr if he is not a US citizen.", ">\n\nI never heard of this guy until he became popular on this sub a couple of days ago.", ">\n\nOh leave him alone. Everyone knows he’s republican", ">\n\nHis Dick is 2.5 inches long and he is not married to a sheep!!", ">\n\nThese are the days of our lives!", ">\n\nNever trust a man in a tunic.", ">\n\nLotta small dick energy here too… \nmaybe Greta needs to send her email address to this toilet stain of a person too?" ]

[]

[ "But Russia wants “peace” talks, don’t they?" ]

[ "But Russia wants “peace” talks, don’t they?", ">\n\nthey can peace off" ]

[ "But Russia wants “peace” talks, don’t they?", ">\n\nthey can peace off", ">\n\nReturn the favor Ukraine! Attack those mofos!" ]

[ "But Russia wants “peace” talks, don’t they?", ">\n\nthey can peace off", ">\n\nReturn the favor Ukraine! Attack those mofos!", ">\n\nSerious question about military tactics: why do they spread out their attacks like that? is this an issue of logistics, or do they hope with every barrage that this will be enough already? or are they simply inept?" ]

[ "But Russia wants “peace” talks, don’t they?", ">\n\nthey can peace off", ">\n\nReturn the favor Ukraine! Attack those mofos!", ">\n\nSerious question about military tactics: why do they spread out their attacks like that? is this an issue of logistics, or do they hope with every barrage that this will be enough already? or are they simply inept?", ">\n\nSpeculation:\na) they may need to build more missiles\nb) getting the logistics to launch them takes time\nc) hitting the same target 7 times at the same time isn't too useful, so they want to hit what is still standing because missiles got shot down, or got repaired again since last time" ]

[ "But Russia wants “peace” talks, don’t they?", ">\n\nthey can peace off", ">\n\nReturn the favor Ukraine! Attack those mofos!", ">\n\nSerious question about military tactics: why do they spread out their attacks like that? is this an issue of logistics, or do they hope with every barrage that this will be enough already? or are they simply inept?", ">\n\nSpeculation:\na) they may need to build more missiles\nb) getting the logistics to launch them takes time\nc) hitting the same target 7 times at the same time isn't too useful, so they want to hit what is still standing because missiles got shot down, or got repaired again since last time", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nRussia attacked Ukraine with a barrage of missiles Thursday, including ones that targeted the capital, Kyiv, as well as the city of Kharkiv.\nUkrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is advocating a 10-point peace plan that calls for Russia to recognize Ukraine's territory and withdraw its troops.\nThe Kremlin reiterated its dismissal of the proposal Wednesday, doubling down on its stance that Ukraine must accept the annexation Russia claimed in September after referendums rejected by Ukraine and most other nations as shams.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Russia^#1 Ukraine^#2 Ukrainian^#3 Zelenskyy^#4 missiles^#5" ]

[ "But Russia wants “peace” talks, don’t they?", ">\n\nthey can peace off", ">\n\nReturn the favor Ukraine! Attack those mofos!", ">\n\nSerious question about military tactics: why do they spread out their attacks like that? is this an issue of logistics, or do they hope with every barrage that this will be enough already? or are they simply inept?", ">\n\nSpeculation:\na) they may need to build more missiles\nb) getting the logistics to launch them takes time\nc) hitting the same target 7 times at the same time isn't too useful, so they want to hit what is still standing because missiles got shot down, or got repaired again since last time", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nRussia attacked Ukraine with a barrage of missiles Thursday, including ones that targeted the capital, Kyiv, as well as the city of Kharkiv.\nUkrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is advocating a 10-point peace plan that calls for Russia to recognize Ukraine's territory and withdraw its troops.\nThe Kremlin reiterated its dismissal of the proposal Wednesday, doubling down on its stance that Ukraine must accept the annexation Russia claimed in September after referendums rejected by Ukraine and most other nations as shams.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Russia^#1 Ukraine^#2 Ukrainian^#3 Zelenskyy^#4 missiles^#5", ">\n\nIt always goes well for countries that try to invade Russia…" ]

[]

[ "How?? Those two things have nothing to do with each other. Merry Christmas =\\= you have aggressive lung cancer. Now, the people who were expecting results for lung cancer, got an apology but now may get the same message again if they test positive for it. What a terrible head game." ]

[]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?", ">\n\nThe problem with women's sports is that they try to be too much like men when they are absolutely not. For the WNBA, maybe 1 or 2 people can dunk? And that's just barely getting a hand on the rim? Not exciting. In the NBA you have a handful of men who CANNOT dunk. If the WNBA made it so that the sport is different enough for women that they can make it entertaining, such as lowering the rim, then I think they would be better off. The women's sports are ignoring the basic biology that makes the top 1% in women's sports significantly inferior to the top 10% of men." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?", ">\n\nThe problem with women's sports is that they try to be too much like men when they are absolutely not. For the WNBA, maybe 1 or 2 people can dunk? And that's just barely getting a hand on the rim? Not exciting. In the NBA you have a handful of men who CANNOT dunk. If the WNBA made it so that the sport is different enough for women that they can make it entertaining, such as lowering the rim, then I think they would be better off. The women's sports are ignoring the basic biology that makes the top 1% in women's sports significantly inferior to the top 10% of men.", ">\n\nNo, it's because men are better at most sports because they're bigger, stronger and faster and thus most people (men and women), find it more entertaining to watch. People want to watch the best." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?", ">\n\nThe problem with women's sports is that they try to be too much like men when they are absolutely not. For the WNBA, maybe 1 or 2 people can dunk? And that's just barely getting a hand on the rim? Not exciting. In the NBA you have a handful of men who CANNOT dunk. If the WNBA made it so that the sport is different enough for women that they can make it entertaining, such as lowering the rim, then I think they would be better off. The women's sports are ignoring the basic biology that makes the top 1% in women's sports significantly inferior to the top 10% of men.", ">\n\nNo, it's because men are better at most sports because they're bigger, stronger and faster and thus most people (men and women), find it more entertaining to watch. People want to watch the best.", ">\n\nOccam's razor but people will come up with stupid bullshit to cause drama and be opressed." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?", ">\n\nThe problem with women's sports is that they try to be too much like men when they are absolutely not. For the WNBA, maybe 1 or 2 people can dunk? And that's just barely getting a hand on the rim? Not exciting. In the NBA you have a handful of men who CANNOT dunk. If the WNBA made it so that the sport is different enough for women that they can make it entertaining, such as lowering the rim, then I think they would be better off. The women's sports are ignoring the basic biology that makes the top 1% in women's sports significantly inferior to the top 10% of men.", ">\n\nNo, it's because men are better at most sports because they're bigger, stronger and faster and thus most people (men and women), find it more entertaining to watch. People want to watch the best.", ">\n\nOccam's razor but people will come up with stupid bullshit to cause drama and be opressed.", ">\n\nThe best athletes make the most money. People want to watch the best humans at a sport. \nSo you'll never have the same support for womens sport cause it will never be as good as mens sports. \nPeople just need to get over it. There are other ways to live a happy life other than being a rich athlete." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?", ">\n\nThe problem with women's sports is that they try to be too much like men when they are absolutely not. For the WNBA, maybe 1 or 2 people can dunk? And that's just barely getting a hand on the rim? Not exciting. In the NBA you have a handful of men who CANNOT dunk. If the WNBA made it so that the sport is different enough for women that they can make it entertaining, such as lowering the rim, then I think they would be better off. The women's sports are ignoring the basic biology that makes the top 1% in women's sports significantly inferior to the top 10% of men.", ">\n\nNo, it's because men are better at most sports because they're bigger, stronger and faster and thus most people (men and women), find it more entertaining to watch. People want to watch the best.", ">\n\nOccam's razor but people will come up with stupid bullshit to cause drama and be opressed.", ">\n\nThe best athletes make the most money. People want to watch the best humans at a sport. \nSo you'll never have the same support for womens sport cause it will never be as good as mens sports. \nPeople just need to get over it. There are other ways to live a happy life other than being a rich athlete.", ">\n\nI disagree that it’s about “the best athletes”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports and don’t understand the rules of the game, so who cares now? Vs men who played on teams and played casually and probably even bonded with their male relatives watching sports while women served their snacks in the background." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?", ">\n\nThe problem with women's sports is that they try to be too much like men when they are absolutely not. For the WNBA, maybe 1 or 2 people can dunk? And that's just barely getting a hand on the rim? Not exciting. In the NBA you have a handful of men who CANNOT dunk. If the WNBA made it so that the sport is different enough for women that they can make it entertaining, such as lowering the rim, then I think they would be better off. The women's sports are ignoring the basic biology that makes the top 1% in women's sports significantly inferior to the top 10% of men.", ">\n\nNo, it's because men are better at most sports because they're bigger, stronger and faster and thus most people (men and women), find it more entertaining to watch. People want to watch the best.", ">\n\nOccam's razor but people will come up with stupid bullshit to cause drama and be opressed.", ">\n\nThe best athletes make the most money. People want to watch the best humans at a sport. \nSo you'll never have the same support for womens sport cause it will never be as good as mens sports. \nPeople just need to get over it. There are other ways to live a happy life other than being a rich athlete.", ">\n\nI disagree that it’s about “the best athletes”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports and don’t understand the rules of the game, so who cares now? Vs men who played on teams and played casually and probably even bonded with their male relatives watching sports while women served their snacks in the background.", ">\n\n\n”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports\n\nI'm sorry every girl in the UK payed football, hockey, netball ect in school. I don't know about the whole world but I imagine that is similar. \n\nwhile women served their snacks in the background.\n\nMaybe 100 years ago. Not in the last 30 years." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?", ">\n\nThe problem with women's sports is that they try to be too much like men when they are absolutely not. For the WNBA, maybe 1 or 2 people can dunk? And that's just barely getting a hand on the rim? Not exciting. In the NBA you have a handful of men who CANNOT dunk. If the WNBA made it so that the sport is different enough for women that they can make it entertaining, such as lowering the rim, then I think they would be better off. The women's sports are ignoring the basic biology that makes the top 1% in women's sports significantly inferior to the top 10% of men.", ">\n\nNo, it's because men are better at most sports because they're bigger, stronger and faster and thus most people (men and women), find it more entertaining to watch. People want to watch the best.", ">\n\nOccam's razor but people will come up with stupid bullshit to cause drama and be opressed.", ">\n\nThe best athletes make the most money. People want to watch the best humans at a sport. \nSo you'll never have the same support for womens sport cause it will never be as good as mens sports. \nPeople just need to get over it. There are other ways to live a happy life other than being a rich athlete.", ">\n\nI disagree that it’s about “the best athletes”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports and don’t understand the rules of the game, so who cares now? Vs men who played on teams and played casually and probably even bonded with their male relatives watching sports while women served their snacks in the background.", ">\n\n\n”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports\n\nI'm sorry every girl in the UK payed football, hockey, netball ect in school. I don't know about the whole world but I imagine that is similar. \n\nwhile women served their snacks in the background.\n\nMaybe 100 years ago. Not in the last 30 years.", ">\n\nYou’re right, I’m thinking more of American football, serving snacks for men during TV games, men watching football all day on Thanksgiving while the women make the meal, all part of common American life now and certainly within the last 30 years. They didn’t even have a Super Bowl or TV for watching sports 100 years ago. \nNever played soccer or hockey and never heard of netball ¯_(ツ)_/¯" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?", ">\n\nThe problem with women's sports is that they try to be too much like men when they are absolutely not. For the WNBA, maybe 1 or 2 people can dunk? And that's just barely getting a hand on the rim? Not exciting. In the NBA you have a handful of men who CANNOT dunk. If the WNBA made it so that the sport is different enough for women that they can make it entertaining, such as lowering the rim, then I think they would be better off. The women's sports are ignoring the basic biology that makes the top 1% in women's sports significantly inferior to the top 10% of men.", ">\n\nNo, it's because men are better at most sports because they're bigger, stronger and faster and thus most people (men and women), find it more entertaining to watch. People want to watch the best.", ">\n\nOccam's razor but people will come up with stupid bullshit to cause drama and be opressed.", ">\n\nThe best athletes make the most money. People want to watch the best humans at a sport. \nSo you'll never have the same support for womens sport cause it will never be as good as mens sports. \nPeople just need to get over it. There are other ways to live a happy life other than being a rich athlete.", ">\n\nI disagree that it’s about “the best athletes”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports and don’t understand the rules of the game, so who cares now? Vs men who played on teams and played casually and probably even bonded with their male relatives watching sports while women served their snacks in the background.", ">\n\n\n”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports\n\nI'm sorry every girl in the UK payed football, hockey, netball ect in school. I don't know about the whole world but I imagine that is similar. \n\nwhile women served their snacks in the background.\n\nMaybe 100 years ago. Not in the last 30 years.", ">\n\nYou’re right, I’m thinking more of American football, serving snacks for men during TV games, men watching football all day on Thanksgiving while the women make the meal, all part of common American life now and certainly within the last 30 years. They didn’t even have a Super Bowl or TV for watching sports 100 years ago. \nNever played soccer or hockey and never heard of netball ¯_(ツ)_/¯", ">\n\nIn this context hockey = Field Hockey" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?", ">\n\nThe problem with women's sports is that they try to be too much like men when they are absolutely not. For the WNBA, maybe 1 or 2 people can dunk? And that's just barely getting a hand on the rim? Not exciting. In the NBA you have a handful of men who CANNOT dunk. If the WNBA made it so that the sport is different enough for women that they can make it entertaining, such as lowering the rim, then I think they would be better off. The women's sports are ignoring the basic biology that makes the top 1% in women's sports significantly inferior to the top 10% of men.", ">\n\nNo, it's because men are better at most sports because they're bigger, stronger and faster and thus most people (men and women), find it more entertaining to watch. People want to watch the best.", ">\n\nOccam's razor but people will come up with stupid bullshit to cause drama and be opressed.", ">\n\nThe best athletes make the most money. People want to watch the best humans at a sport. \nSo you'll never have the same support for womens sport cause it will never be as good as mens sports. \nPeople just need to get over it. There are other ways to live a happy life other than being a rich athlete.", ">\n\nI disagree that it’s about “the best athletes”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports and don’t understand the rules of the game, so who cares now? Vs men who played on teams and played casually and probably even bonded with their male relatives watching sports while women served their snacks in the background.", ">\n\n\n”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports\n\nI'm sorry every girl in the UK payed football, hockey, netball ect in school. I don't know about the whole world but I imagine that is similar. \n\nwhile women served their snacks in the background.\n\nMaybe 100 years ago. Not in the last 30 years.", ">\n\nYou’re right, I’m thinking more of American football, serving snacks for men during TV games, men watching football all day on Thanksgiving while the women make the meal, all part of common American life now and certainly within the last 30 years. They didn’t even have a Super Bowl or TV for watching sports 100 years ago. \nNever played soccer or hockey and never heard of netball ¯_(ツ)_/¯", ">\n\nIn this context hockey = Field Hockey", ">\n\n\nThey desperately need more investment….\n\nI don't necessarily disagree that they could use some marketing.\nBut you said that right after pointing out that they lost to a U15 FC Dallas boys team. This is not a marketing issue. This is a biology issue. Boys are just faster, stronger and more agile. No amount of marketing is going to fix that." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?", ">\n\nThe problem with women's sports is that they try to be too much like men when they are absolutely not. For the WNBA, maybe 1 or 2 people can dunk? And that's just barely getting a hand on the rim? Not exciting. In the NBA you have a handful of men who CANNOT dunk. If the WNBA made it so that the sport is different enough for women that they can make it entertaining, such as lowering the rim, then I think they would be better off. The women's sports are ignoring the basic biology that makes the top 1% in women's sports significantly inferior to the top 10% of men.", ">\n\nNo, it's because men are better at most sports because they're bigger, stronger and faster and thus most people (men and women), find it more entertaining to watch. People want to watch the best.", ">\n\nOccam's razor but people will come up with stupid bullshit to cause drama and be opressed.", ">\n\nThe best athletes make the most money. People want to watch the best humans at a sport. \nSo you'll never have the same support for womens sport cause it will never be as good as mens sports. \nPeople just need to get over it. There are other ways to live a happy life other than being a rich athlete.", ">\n\nI disagree that it’s about “the best athletes”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports and don’t understand the rules of the game, so who cares now? Vs men who played on teams and played casually and probably even bonded with their male relatives watching sports while women served their snacks in the background.", ">\n\n\n”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports\n\nI'm sorry every girl in the UK payed football, hockey, netball ect in school. I don't know about the whole world but I imagine that is similar. \n\nwhile women served their snacks in the background.\n\nMaybe 100 years ago. Not in the last 30 years.", ">\n\nYou’re right, I’m thinking more of American football, serving snacks for men during TV games, men watching football all day on Thanksgiving while the women make the meal, all part of common American life now and certainly within the last 30 years. They didn’t even have a Super Bowl or TV for watching sports 100 years ago. \nNever played soccer or hockey and never heard of netball ¯_(ツ)_/¯", ">\n\nIn this context hockey = Field Hockey", ">\n\n\nThey desperately need more investment….\n\nI don't necessarily disagree that they could use some marketing.\nBut you said that right after pointing out that they lost to a U15 FC Dallas boys team. This is not a marketing issue. This is a biology issue. Boys are just faster, stronger and more agile. No amount of marketing is going to fix that.", ">\n\nA professional world champion women’s team with better coaches and better equipment would/should easily be able to outsmart 14 year old boys. Despite the biological differences." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?", ">\n\nThe problem with women's sports is that they try to be too much like men when they are absolutely not. For the WNBA, maybe 1 or 2 people can dunk? And that's just barely getting a hand on the rim? Not exciting. In the NBA you have a handful of men who CANNOT dunk. If the WNBA made it so that the sport is different enough for women that they can make it entertaining, such as lowering the rim, then I think they would be better off. The women's sports are ignoring the basic biology that makes the top 1% in women's sports significantly inferior to the top 10% of men.", ">\n\nNo, it's because men are better at most sports because they're bigger, stronger and faster and thus most people (men and women), find it more entertaining to watch. People want to watch the best.", ">\n\nOccam's razor but people will come up with stupid bullshit to cause drama and be opressed.", ">\n\nThe best athletes make the most money. People want to watch the best humans at a sport. \nSo you'll never have the same support for womens sport cause it will never be as good as mens sports. \nPeople just need to get over it. There are other ways to live a happy life other than being a rich athlete.", ">\n\nI disagree that it’s about “the best athletes”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports and don’t understand the rules of the game, so who cares now? Vs men who played on teams and played casually and probably even bonded with their male relatives watching sports while women served their snacks in the background.", ">\n\n\n”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports\n\nI'm sorry every girl in the UK payed football, hockey, netball ect in school. I don't know about the whole world but I imagine that is similar. \n\nwhile women served their snacks in the background.\n\nMaybe 100 years ago. Not in the last 30 years.", ">\n\nYou’re right, I’m thinking more of American football, serving snacks for men during TV games, men watching football all day on Thanksgiving while the women make the meal, all part of common American life now and certainly within the last 30 years. They didn’t even have a Super Bowl or TV for watching sports 100 years ago. \nNever played soccer or hockey and never heard of netball ¯_(ツ)_/¯", ">\n\nIn this context hockey = Field Hockey", ">\n\n\nThey desperately need more investment….\n\nI don't necessarily disagree that they could use some marketing.\nBut you said that right after pointing out that they lost to a U15 FC Dallas boys team. This is not a marketing issue. This is a biology issue. Boys are just faster, stronger and more agile. No amount of marketing is going to fix that.", ">\n\nA professional world champion women’s team with better coaches and better equipment would/should easily be able to outsmart 14 year old boys. Despite the biological differences.", ">\n\nWhy do you think this? It isn't just soccer. It happens in quite literally every major sport. The Canada women's hockey teams play in the men's junior high school club leagues and lose all the time. That is roughly their competitive level." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?", ">\n\nThe problem with women's sports is that they try to be too much like men when they are absolutely not. For the WNBA, maybe 1 or 2 people can dunk? And that's just barely getting a hand on the rim? Not exciting. In the NBA you have a handful of men who CANNOT dunk. If the WNBA made it so that the sport is different enough for women that they can make it entertaining, such as lowering the rim, then I think they would be better off. The women's sports are ignoring the basic biology that makes the top 1% in women's sports significantly inferior to the top 10% of men.", ">\n\nNo, it's because men are better at most sports because they're bigger, stronger and faster and thus most people (men and women), find it more entertaining to watch. People want to watch the best.", ">\n\nOccam's razor but people will come up with stupid bullshit to cause drama and be opressed.", ">\n\nThe best athletes make the most money. People want to watch the best humans at a sport. \nSo you'll never have the same support for womens sport cause it will never be as good as mens sports. \nPeople just need to get over it. There are other ways to live a happy life other than being a rich athlete.", ">\n\nI disagree that it’s about “the best athletes”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports and don’t understand the rules of the game, so who cares now? Vs men who played on teams and played casually and probably even bonded with their male relatives watching sports while women served their snacks in the background.", ">\n\n\n”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports\n\nI'm sorry every girl in the UK payed football, hockey, netball ect in school. I don't know about the whole world but I imagine that is similar. \n\nwhile women served their snacks in the background.\n\nMaybe 100 years ago. Not in the last 30 years.", ">\n\nYou’re right, I’m thinking more of American football, serving snacks for men during TV games, men watching football all day on Thanksgiving while the women make the meal, all part of common American life now and certainly within the last 30 years. They didn’t even have a Super Bowl or TV for watching sports 100 years ago. \nNever played soccer or hockey and never heard of netball ¯_(ツ)_/¯", ">\n\nIn this context hockey = Field Hockey", ">\n\n\nThey desperately need more investment….\n\nI don't necessarily disagree that they could use some marketing.\nBut you said that right after pointing out that they lost to a U15 FC Dallas boys team. This is not a marketing issue. This is a biology issue. Boys are just faster, stronger and more agile. No amount of marketing is going to fix that.", ">\n\nA professional world champion women’s team with better coaches and better equipment would/should easily be able to outsmart 14 year old boys. Despite the biological differences.", ">\n\nWhy do you think this? It isn't just soccer. It happens in quite literally every major sport. The Canada women's hockey teams play in the men's junior high school club leagues and lose all the time. That is roughly their competitive level.", ">\n\nThey’re playing the same sport, with the same requirement of skill level. It takes women the same amount of time out of the day to train, the same food and work out plans, the same equipment, the same number of off-team support members like coaches and managers, the same travel, the same schedule, the same everything. You don’t pay people off their viewership. That’s like saying if you have one male McDonald’s employee, and one female McDonald’s employee, you’re going to pay them based on how many people come to their drive through window, not on their merit or what it takes to do their job. People choosing to go to the man’s window more often doesn’t make his job any harder than hers, it just means people like him more. \nIf you’re going to say the wage gap is acceptable, womens sports and the skill, talent, and physical toll should be lesser than men’s and reflect their pay grade then. \nI also find it so interesting you say, “if WOMEN want them to be paid equally”. You’re making this a “women’s issue” of feminism or something, and it’s a weird way to expose your actual feelings. Because why wouldn’t men want equal pay for everyone unless there’s misogyny involved? Why does them getting equal pay without equal viewership UPSET you? How does it even affect you or ANY man on earth if a male and female basketball player have the same amount of money in their bank accounts?" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?", ">\n\nThe problem with women's sports is that they try to be too much like men when they are absolutely not. For the WNBA, maybe 1 or 2 people can dunk? And that's just barely getting a hand on the rim? Not exciting. In the NBA you have a handful of men who CANNOT dunk. If the WNBA made it so that the sport is different enough for women that they can make it entertaining, such as lowering the rim, then I think they would be better off. The women's sports are ignoring the basic biology that makes the top 1% in women's sports significantly inferior to the top 10% of men.", ">\n\nNo, it's because men are better at most sports because they're bigger, stronger and faster and thus most people (men and women), find it more entertaining to watch. People want to watch the best.", ">\n\nOccam's razor but people will come up with stupid bullshit to cause drama and be opressed.", ">\n\nThe best athletes make the most money. People want to watch the best humans at a sport. \nSo you'll never have the same support for womens sport cause it will never be as good as mens sports. \nPeople just need to get over it. There are other ways to live a happy life other than being a rich athlete.", ">\n\nI disagree that it’s about “the best athletes”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports and don’t understand the rules of the game, so who cares now? Vs men who played on teams and played casually and probably even bonded with their male relatives watching sports while women served their snacks in the background.", ">\n\n\n”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports\n\nI'm sorry every girl in the UK payed football, hockey, netball ect in school. I don't know about the whole world but I imagine that is similar. \n\nwhile women served their snacks in the background.\n\nMaybe 100 years ago. Not in the last 30 years.", ">\n\nYou’re right, I’m thinking more of American football, serving snacks for men during TV games, men watching football all day on Thanksgiving while the women make the meal, all part of common American life now and certainly within the last 30 years. They didn’t even have a Super Bowl or TV for watching sports 100 years ago. \nNever played soccer or hockey and never heard of netball ¯_(ツ)_/¯", ">\n\nIn this context hockey = Field Hockey", ">\n\n\nThey desperately need more investment….\n\nI don't necessarily disagree that they could use some marketing.\nBut you said that right after pointing out that they lost to a U15 FC Dallas boys team. This is not a marketing issue. This is a biology issue. Boys are just faster, stronger and more agile. No amount of marketing is going to fix that.", ">\n\nA professional world champion women’s team with better coaches and better equipment would/should easily be able to outsmart 14 year old boys. Despite the biological differences.", ">\n\nWhy do you think this? It isn't just soccer. It happens in quite literally every major sport. The Canada women's hockey teams play in the men's junior high school club leagues and lose all the time. That is roughly their competitive level.", ">\n\nThey’re playing the same sport, with the same requirement of skill level. It takes women the same amount of time out of the day to train, the same food and work out plans, the same equipment, the same number of off-team support members like coaches and managers, the same travel, the same schedule, the same everything. You don’t pay people off their viewership. That’s like saying if you have one male McDonald’s employee, and one female McDonald’s employee, you’re going to pay them based on how many people come to their drive through window, not on their merit or what it takes to do their job. People choosing to go to the man’s window more often doesn’t make his job any harder than hers, it just means people like him more. \nIf you’re going to say the wage gap is acceptable, womens sports and the skill, talent, and physical toll should be lesser than men’s and reflect their pay grade then. \nI also find it so interesting you say, “if WOMEN want them to be paid equally”. You’re making this a “women’s issue” of feminism or something, and it’s a weird way to expose your actual feelings. Because why wouldn’t men want equal pay for everyone unless there’s misogyny involved? Why does them getting equal pay without equal viewership UPSET you? How does it even affect you or ANY man on earth if a male and female basketball player have the same amount of money in their bank accounts?", ">\n\nDon’t blame this on simply women not supporting female leagues. Unfortunately, female leagues simply do not pull in enough revenue to support higher salaries. But the lack of revenue is driven by lack of support across the board. Both male and female. I don’t know what could solve this." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?", ">\n\nThe problem with women's sports is that they try to be too much like men when they are absolutely not. For the WNBA, maybe 1 or 2 people can dunk? And that's just barely getting a hand on the rim? Not exciting. In the NBA you have a handful of men who CANNOT dunk. If the WNBA made it so that the sport is different enough for women that they can make it entertaining, such as lowering the rim, then I think they would be better off. The women's sports are ignoring the basic biology that makes the top 1% in women's sports significantly inferior to the top 10% of men.", ">\n\nNo, it's because men are better at most sports because they're bigger, stronger and faster and thus most people (men and women), find it more entertaining to watch. People want to watch the best.", ">\n\nOccam's razor but people will come up with stupid bullshit to cause drama and be opressed.", ">\n\nThe best athletes make the most money. People want to watch the best humans at a sport. \nSo you'll never have the same support for womens sport cause it will never be as good as mens sports. \nPeople just need to get over it. There are other ways to live a happy life other than being a rich athlete.", ">\n\nI disagree that it’s about “the best athletes”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports and don’t understand the rules of the game, so who cares now? Vs men who played on teams and played casually and probably even bonded with their male relatives watching sports while women served their snacks in the background.", ">\n\n\n”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports\n\nI'm sorry every girl in the UK payed football, hockey, netball ect in school. I don't know about the whole world but I imagine that is similar. \n\nwhile women served their snacks in the background.\n\nMaybe 100 years ago. Not in the last 30 years.", ">\n\nYou’re right, I’m thinking more of American football, serving snacks for men during TV games, men watching football all day on Thanksgiving while the women make the meal, all part of common American life now and certainly within the last 30 years. They didn’t even have a Super Bowl or TV for watching sports 100 years ago. \nNever played soccer or hockey and never heard of netball ¯_(ツ)_/¯", ">\n\nIn this context hockey = Field Hockey", ">\n\n\nThey desperately need more investment….\n\nI don't necessarily disagree that they could use some marketing.\nBut you said that right after pointing out that they lost to a U15 FC Dallas boys team. This is not a marketing issue. This is a biology issue. Boys are just faster, stronger and more agile. No amount of marketing is going to fix that.", ">\n\nA professional world champion women’s team with better coaches and better equipment would/should easily be able to outsmart 14 year old boys. Despite the biological differences.", ">\n\nWhy do you think this? It isn't just soccer. It happens in quite literally every major sport. The Canada women's hockey teams play in the men's junior high school club leagues and lose all the time. That is roughly their competitive level.", ">\n\nThey’re playing the same sport, with the same requirement of skill level. It takes women the same amount of time out of the day to train, the same food and work out plans, the same equipment, the same number of off-team support members like coaches and managers, the same travel, the same schedule, the same everything. You don’t pay people off their viewership. That’s like saying if you have one male McDonald’s employee, and one female McDonald’s employee, you’re going to pay them based on how many people come to their drive through window, not on their merit or what it takes to do their job. People choosing to go to the man’s window more often doesn’t make his job any harder than hers, it just means people like him more. \nIf you’re going to say the wage gap is acceptable, womens sports and the skill, talent, and physical toll should be lesser than men’s and reflect their pay grade then. \nI also find it so interesting you say, “if WOMEN want them to be paid equally”. You’re making this a “women’s issue” of feminism or something, and it’s a weird way to expose your actual feelings. Because why wouldn’t men want equal pay for everyone unless there’s misogyny involved? Why does them getting equal pay without equal viewership UPSET you? How does it even affect you or ANY man on earth if a male and female basketball player have the same amount of money in their bank accounts?", ">\n\nDon’t blame this on simply women not supporting female leagues. Unfortunately, female leagues simply do not pull in enough revenue to support higher salaries. But the lack of revenue is driven by lack of support across the board. Both male and female. I don’t know what could solve this.", ">\n\nWhy does it need to be solved?" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?", ">\n\nThe problem with women's sports is that they try to be too much like men when they are absolutely not. For the WNBA, maybe 1 or 2 people can dunk? And that's just barely getting a hand on the rim? Not exciting. In the NBA you have a handful of men who CANNOT dunk. If the WNBA made it so that the sport is different enough for women that they can make it entertaining, such as lowering the rim, then I think they would be better off. The women's sports are ignoring the basic biology that makes the top 1% in women's sports significantly inferior to the top 10% of men.", ">\n\nNo, it's because men are better at most sports because they're bigger, stronger and faster and thus most people (men and women), find it more entertaining to watch. People want to watch the best.", ">\n\nOccam's razor but people will come up with stupid bullshit to cause drama and be opressed.", ">\n\nThe best athletes make the most money. People want to watch the best humans at a sport. \nSo you'll never have the same support for womens sport cause it will never be as good as mens sports. \nPeople just need to get over it. There are other ways to live a happy life other than being a rich athlete.", ">\n\nI disagree that it’s about “the best athletes”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports and don’t understand the rules of the game, so who cares now? Vs men who played on teams and played casually and probably even bonded with their male relatives watching sports while women served their snacks in the background.", ">\n\n\n”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports\n\nI'm sorry every girl in the UK payed football, hockey, netball ect in school. I don't know about the whole world but I imagine that is similar. \n\nwhile women served their snacks in the background.\n\nMaybe 100 years ago. Not in the last 30 years.", ">\n\nYou’re right, I’m thinking more of American football, serving snacks for men during TV games, men watching football all day on Thanksgiving while the women make the meal, all part of common American life now and certainly within the last 30 years. They didn’t even have a Super Bowl or TV for watching sports 100 years ago. \nNever played soccer or hockey and never heard of netball ¯_(ツ)_/¯", ">\n\nIn this context hockey = Field Hockey", ">\n\n\nThey desperately need more investment….\n\nI don't necessarily disagree that they could use some marketing.\nBut you said that right after pointing out that they lost to a U15 FC Dallas boys team. This is not a marketing issue. This is a biology issue. Boys are just faster, stronger and more agile. No amount of marketing is going to fix that.", ">\n\nA professional world champion women’s team with better coaches and better equipment would/should easily be able to outsmart 14 year old boys. Despite the biological differences.", ">\n\nWhy do you think this? It isn't just soccer. It happens in quite literally every major sport. The Canada women's hockey teams play in the men's junior high school club leagues and lose all the time. That is roughly their competitive level.", ">\n\nThey’re playing the same sport, with the same requirement of skill level. It takes women the same amount of time out of the day to train, the same food and work out plans, the same equipment, the same number of off-team support members like coaches and managers, the same travel, the same schedule, the same everything. You don’t pay people off their viewership. That’s like saying if you have one male McDonald’s employee, and one female McDonald’s employee, you’re going to pay them based on how many people come to their drive through window, not on their merit or what it takes to do their job. People choosing to go to the man’s window more often doesn’t make his job any harder than hers, it just means people like him more. \nIf you’re going to say the wage gap is acceptable, womens sports and the skill, talent, and physical toll should be lesser than men’s and reflect their pay grade then. \nI also find it so interesting you say, “if WOMEN want them to be paid equally”. You’re making this a “women’s issue” of feminism or something, and it’s a weird way to expose your actual feelings. Because why wouldn’t men want equal pay for everyone unless there’s misogyny involved? Why does them getting equal pay without equal viewership UPSET you? How does it even affect you or ANY man on earth if a male and female basketball player have the same amount of money in their bank accounts?", ">\n\nDon’t blame this on simply women not supporting female leagues. Unfortunately, female leagues simply do not pull in enough revenue to support higher salaries. But the lack of revenue is driven by lack of support across the board. Both male and female. I don’t know what could solve this.", ">\n\nWhy does it need to be solved?", ">\n\nI know a lot of female players are upset they do not make the same as their male counterparts. Same effort but less money. Once the franchises start bringing in comparable revenue we will likely see salaries level off." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?", ">\n\nThe problem with women's sports is that they try to be too much like men when they are absolutely not. For the WNBA, maybe 1 or 2 people can dunk? And that's just barely getting a hand on the rim? Not exciting. In the NBA you have a handful of men who CANNOT dunk. If the WNBA made it so that the sport is different enough for women that they can make it entertaining, such as lowering the rim, then I think they would be better off. The women's sports are ignoring the basic biology that makes the top 1% in women's sports significantly inferior to the top 10% of men.", ">\n\nNo, it's because men are better at most sports because they're bigger, stronger and faster and thus most people (men and women), find it more entertaining to watch. People want to watch the best.", ">\n\nOccam's razor but people will come up with stupid bullshit to cause drama and be opressed.", ">\n\nThe best athletes make the most money. People want to watch the best humans at a sport. \nSo you'll never have the same support for womens sport cause it will never be as good as mens sports. \nPeople just need to get over it. There are other ways to live a happy life other than being a rich athlete.", ">\n\nI disagree that it’s about “the best athletes”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports and don’t understand the rules of the game, so who cares now? Vs men who played on teams and played casually and probably even bonded with their male relatives watching sports while women served their snacks in the background.", ">\n\n\n”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports\n\nI'm sorry every girl in the UK payed football, hockey, netball ect in school. I don't know about the whole world but I imagine that is similar. \n\nwhile women served their snacks in the background.\n\nMaybe 100 years ago. Not in the last 30 years.", ">\n\nYou’re right, I’m thinking more of American football, serving snacks for men during TV games, men watching football all day on Thanksgiving while the women make the meal, all part of common American life now and certainly within the last 30 years. They didn’t even have a Super Bowl or TV for watching sports 100 years ago. \nNever played soccer or hockey and never heard of netball ¯_(ツ)_/¯", ">\n\nIn this context hockey = Field Hockey", ">\n\n\nThey desperately need more investment….\n\nI don't necessarily disagree that they could use some marketing.\nBut you said that right after pointing out that they lost to a U15 FC Dallas boys team. This is not a marketing issue. This is a biology issue. Boys are just faster, stronger and more agile. No amount of marketing is going to fix that.", ">\n\nA professional world champion women’s team with better coaches and better equipment would/should easily be able to outsmart 14 year old boys. Despite the biological differences.", ">\n\nWhy do you think this? It isn't just soccer. It happens in quite literally every major sport. The Canada women's hockey teams play in the men's junior high school club leagues and lose all the time. That is roughly their competitive level.", ">\n\nThey’re playing the same sport, with the same requirement of skill level. It takes women the same amount of time out of the day to train, the same food and work out plans, the same equipment, the same number of off-team support members like coaches and managers, the same travel, the same schedule, the same everything. You don’t pay people off their viewership. That’s like saying if you have one male McDonald’s employee, and one female McDonald’s employee, you’re going to pay them based on how many people come to their drive through window, not on their merit or what it takes to do their job. People choosing to go to the man’s window more often doesn’t make his job any harder than hers, it just means people like him more. \nIf you’re going to say the wage gap is acceptable, womens sports and the skill, talent, and physical toll should be lesser than men’s and reflect their pay grade then. \nI also find it so interesting you say, “if WOMEN want them to be paid equally”. You’re making this a “women’s issue” of feminism or something, and it’s a weird way to expose your actual feelings. Because why wouldn’t men want equal pay for everyone unless there’s misogyny involved? Why does them getting equal pay without equal viewership UPSET you? How does it even affect you or ANY man on earth if a male and female basketball player have the same amount of money in their bank accounts?", ">\n\nDon’t blame this on simply women not supporting female leagues. Unfortunately, female leagues simply do not pull in enough revenue to support higher salaries. But the lack of revenue is driven by lack of support across the board. Both male and female. I don’t know what could solve this.", ">\n\nWhy does it need to be solved?", ">\n\nI know a lot of female players are upset they do not make the same as their male counterparts. Same effort but less money. Once the franchises start bringing in comparable revenue we will likely see salaries level off.", ">\n\nAnyone who uses \"effort\" to justify what a profession is worth and not the value that profession generates cannot be taken seriously." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?", ">\n\nThe problem with women's sports is that they try to be too much like men when they are absolutely not. For the WNBA, maybe 1 or 2 people can dunk? And that's just barely getting a hand on the rim? Not exciting. In the NBA you have a handful of men who CANNOT dunk. If the WNBA made it so that the sport is different enough for women that they can make it entertaining, such as lowering the rim, then I think they would be better off. The women's sports are ignoring the basic biology that makes the top 1% in women's sports significantly inferior to the top 10% of men.", ">\n\nNo, it's because men are better at most sports because they're bigger, stronger and faster and thus most people (men and women), find it more entertaining to watch. People want to watch the best.", ">\n\nOccam's razor but people will come up with stupid bullshit to cause drama and be opressed.", ">\n\nThe best athletes make the most money. People want to watch the best humans at a sport. \nSo you'll never have the same support for womens sport cause it will never be as good as mens sports. \nPeople just need to get over it. There are other ways to live a happy life other than being a rich athlete.", ">\n\nI disagree that it’s about “the best athletes”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports and don’t understand the rules of the game, so who cares now? Vs men who played on teams and played casually and probably even bonded with their male relatives watching sports while women served their snacks in the background.", ">\n\n\n”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports\n\nI'm sorry every girl in the UK payed football, hockey, netball ect in school. I don't know about the whole world but I imagine that is similar. \n\nwhile women served their snacks in the background.\n\nMaybe 100 years ago. Not in the last 30 years.", ">\n\nYou’re right, I’m thinking more of American football, serving snacks for men during TV games, men watching football all day on Thanksgiving while the women make the meal, all part of common American life now and certainly within the last 30 years. They didn’t even have a Super Bowl or TV for watching sports 100 years ago. \nNever played soccer or hockey and never heard of netball ¯_(ツ)_/¯", ">\n\nIn this context hockey = Field Hockey", ">\n\n\nThey desperately need more investment….\n\nI don't necessarily disagree that they could use some marketing.\nBut you said that right after pointing out that they lost to a U15 FC Dallas boys team. This is not a marketing issue. This is a biology issue. Boys are just faster, stronger and more agile. No amount of marketing is going to fix that.", ">\n\nA professional world champion women’s team with better coaches and better equipment would/should easily be able to outsmart 14 year old boys. Despite the biological differences.", ">\n\nWhy do you think this? It isn't just soccer. It happens in quite literally every major sport. The Canada women's hockey teams play in the men's junior high school club leagues and lose all the time. That is roughly their competitive level.", ">\n\nThey’re playing the same sport, with the same requirement of skill level. It takes women the same amount of time out of the day to train, the same food and work out plans, the same equipment, the same number of off-team support members like coaches and managers, the same travel, the same schedule, the same everything. You don’t pay people off their viewership. That’s like saying if you have one male McDonald’s employee, and one female McDonald’s employee, you’re going to pay them based on how many people come to their drive through window, not on their merit or what it takes to do their job. People choosing to go to the man’s window more often doesn’t make his job any harder than hers, it just means people like him more. \nIf you’re going to say the wage gap is acceptable, womens sports and the skill, talent, and physical toll should be lesser than men’s and reflect their pay grade then. \nI also find it so interesting you say, “if WOMEN want them to be paid equally”. You’re making this a “women’s issue” of feminism or something, and it’s a weird way to expose your actual feelings. Because why wouldn’t men want equal pay for everyone unless there’s misogyny involved? Why does them getting equal pay without equal viewership UPSET you? How does it even affect you or ANY man on earth if a male and female basketball player have the same amount of money in their bank accounts?", ">\n\nDon’t blame this on simply women not supporting female leagues. Unfortunately, female leagues simply do not pull in enough revenue to support higher salaries. But the lack of revenue is driven by lack of support across the board. Both male and female. I don’t know what could solve this.", ">\n\nWhy does it need to be solved?", ">\n\nI know a lot of female players are upset they do not make the same as their male counterparts. Same effort but less money. Once the franchises start bringing in comparable revenue we will likely see salaries level off.", ">\n\nAnyone who uses \"effort\" to justify what a profession is worth and not the value that profession generates cannot be taken seriously.", ">\n\nI saw an interview with a WNBA player recently (don't remember the name, my apologies) in which she stated that the issue wasn't that they wanted the same pay as male players, but that they wanted the same percentage cut of sales. They receive a base salary, whereas male players receive a cut of ticket and merch sales.\nIts really easy to get lost in the popularity comparison, I did too for a long time, but it allows leagues to structurally undercompensate women athletes" ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?", ">\n\nThe problem with women's sports is that they try to be too much like men when they are absolutely not. For the WNBA, maybe 1 or 2 people can dunk? And that's just barely getting a hand on the rim? Not exciting. In the NBA you have a handful of men who CANNOT dunk. If the WNBA made it so that the sport is different enough for women that they can make it entertaining, such as lowering the rim, then I think they would be better off. The women's sports are ignoring the basic biology that makes the top 1% in women's sports significantly inferior to the top 10% of men.", ">\n\nNo, it's because men are better at most sports because they're bigger, stronger and faster and thus most people (men and women), find it more entertaining to watch. People want to watch the best.", ">\n\nOccam's razor but people will come up with stupid bullshit to cause drama and be opressed.", ">\n\nThe best athletes make the most money. People want to watch the best humans at a sport. \nSo you'll never have the same support for womens sport cause it will never be as good as mens sports. \nPeople just need to get over it. There are other ways to live a happy life other than being a rich athlete.", ">\n\nI disagree that it’s about “the best athletes”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports and don’t understand the rules of the game, so who cares now? Vs men who played on teams and played casually and probably even bonded with their male relatives watching sports while women served their snacks in the background.", ">\n\n\n”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports\n\nI'm sorry every girl in the UK payed football, hockey, netball ect in school. I don't know about the whole world but I imagine that is similar. \n\nwhile women served their snacks in the background.\n\nMaybe 100 years ago. Not in the last 30 years.", ">\n\nYou’re right, I’m thinking more of American football, serving snacks for men during TV games, men watching football all day on Thanksgiving while the women make the meal, all part of common American life now and certainly within the last 30 years. They didn’t even have a Super Bowl or TV for watching sports 100 years ago. \nNever played soccer or hockey and never heard of netball ¯_(ツ)_/¯", ">\n\nIn this context hockey = Field Hockey", ">\n\n\nThey desperately need more investment….\n\nI don't necessarily disagree that they could use some marketing.\nBut you said that right after pointing out that they lost to a U15 FC Dallas boys team. This is not a marketing issue. This is a biology issue. Boys are just faster, stronger and more agile. No amount of marketing is going to fix that.", ">\n\nA professional world champion women’s team with better coaches and better equipment would/should easily be able to outsmart 14 year old boys. Despite the biological differences.", ">\n\nWhy do you think this? It isn't just soccer. It happens in quite literally every major sport. The Canada women's hockey teams play in the men's junior high school club leagues and lose all the time. That is roughly their competitive level.", ">\n\nThey’re playing the same sport, with the same requirement of skill level. It takes women the same amount of time out of the day to train, the same food and work out plans, the same equipment, the same number of off-team support members like coaches and managers, the same travel, the same schedule, the same everything. You don’t pay people off their viewership. That’s like saying if you have one male McDonald’s employee, and one female McDonald’s employee, you’re going to pay them based on how many people come to their drive through window, not on their merit or what it takes to do their job. People choosing to go to the man’s window more often doesn’t make his job any harder than hers, it just means people like him more. \nIf you’re going to say the wage gap is acceptable, womens sports and the skill, talent, and physical toll should be lesser than men’s and reflect their pay grade then. \nI also find it so interesting you say, “if WOMEN want them to be paid equally”. You’re making this a “women’s issue” of feminism or something, and it’s a weird way to expose your actual feelings. Because why wouldn’t men want equal pay for everyone unless there’s misogyny involved? Why does them getting equal pay without equal viewership UPSET you? How does it even affect you or ANY man on earth if a male and female basketball player have the same amount of money in their bank accounts?", ">\n\nDon’t blame this on simply women not supporting female leagues. Unfortunately, female leagues simply do not pull in enough revenue to support higher salaries. But the lack of revenue is driven by lack of support across the board. Both male and female. I don’t know what could solve this.", ">\n\nWhy does it need to be solved?", ">\n\nI know a lot of female players are upset they do not make the same as their male counterparts. Same effort but less money. Once the franchises start bringing in comparable revenue we will likely see salaries level off.", ">\n\nAnyone who uses \"effort\" to justify what a profession is worth and not the value that profession generates cannot be taken seriously.", ">\n\nI saw an interview with a WNBA player recently (don't remember the name, my apologies) in which she stated that the issue wasn't that they wanted the same pay as male players, but that they wanted the same percentage cut of sales. They receive a base salary, whereas male players receive a cut of ticket and merch sales.\nIts really easy to get lost in the popularity comparison, I did too for a long time, but it allows leagues to structurally undercompensate women athletes", ">\n\nThat ignores a very important point. The WNBA does not make any $. Any merch sales they do make go towards recouping some of the $ lost. They lose about $10,000,000 a year. Meanwhile the NBA is massively profitable.\nThe salaries cost WNBA $15mil a year and they lose $10mil. They would lose even more if they didn't include merch sales in that final figure. \nIt not a reasonable request as long as the WNBA is not profitable. If anything they should be thanking their lucky stars that the mens league is willing to subsidize them." ]

[ "/u/Sicily_Long (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nAt least in the case of the WNBA, men actually support and watch the WNBA more than women. The WBNA could be more successful if more men watched the WNBA, even if there wasn't a change in women's viewership and support. The flaw in this is the belief that there is some obligation by men to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some patriarchal compensation, or by women to support the WNBA and make it successful out of some feminist sisterhood.\nNeither men or women have any obligation to watch a sporting division that they do not enjoy, regardless of the gender of the players and any gender politics surrounding it. The WNBA is a business, and it and its players are the ones with both the opportunity and obligation to grow their marketshare. WNBA players will be paid more when they earn more. It's literally in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.\nInstead they've chosen to argue that they only want pay structure equity while comparing their 60 million in annual revenue and -10 million in uncovered expenditures (which is subsidized by the NBA) to the NBA's +6 billion in revenue, while ignoring that they only pull minor league numbers and yet are paid 3-4x minor league salaries.\nIt isn't up to women to support female sports. It's up to sports fans to watch the sports that they enjoy, and female sporting leagues and competitors to provide performances which attract viewers.", ">\n\nWell put. It's entertainment at the end of the day. The only time someone has an obligation to support is when they complain about salaries, but aren't going to games.", ">\n\nI'm about to say something very controversial. The types of sports women and men have been drawn to over the years are very different. I consider gymnastics, figure skating, ballet, and anything with horses to be very enjoyable athletic pursuits to watch. Disney on Ice brings in over a billion dollars per year in ticket sales and probably spurs purchases of Frozen fanwear. I bet Simone Biles influences more purchases than her endorsement money reflects, but if I want to buy a Simone Biles shirt, I gotta go to etsy. Women's tennis and golf are doing okay. But overall women's sports have not been fully developed or corporately exploited. Instead, there is an effort to take traditional men's sports and insert women. Unfortunately, I think many audiences would rather watch men excelling at men's sports. I think soccer may eventually be an exception due to universal appeal.", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ScurvyDervish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTo partially address the topic, there is frequently a misunderstanding caused by the difference in pay structure specifically chosen by female athletes vs those chosen by male athletes.\nMen frequently utilize a high risk-high reward pay-for-play model - They only received compensation if they get called up. If they are injured, too bad -- they miss out. \nWomen frequently opt for more financial security; a system that included guaranteed (but lower) salaries for a subset of players, as well as game bonuses. If a player was under contract - they would still receive the guaranteed salary even if they didn't get called in for whatever reason.", ">\n\nMen and women spend the same money. It’s not that women aren’t supporting women’s sports. It’s that nobody, regardless of gender, are supporting women’s sports. The inverse is also true; Men’s sports aren’t just supported by men, they’re supported more by all genders than the women’s sports.", ">\n\nMen and women don't spend the same money. Women spend a LOT more money than men.", ">\n\nYou make it sound like women just go around throwing cash at stupid shit when the article clearly states women are being exploited for their money. \nI don't think this is the argument you want to make here.", ">\n\nYes just like the article states, women are being exploited by purchasing overpriced shampoo and handbags. I can’t believe society puts chemicals in the $6 male shampoo which makes it poisonous to women.", ">\n\nThere’s nothing stopping men from using women’s hair care products. Most men don’t care to protect their hair and will use harmful shampoos and conditioners (if at all).\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women, it’s that most men’s shampoo is harmful to everyone but men just don’t care.", ">\n\n\nIt’s not that men’s shampoo is harmful to women\n\nHe was making a joke", ">\n\nThis is CMV, it wasn’t just a joke, it was a joke with a point. A point being that men’s shampoo isn’t harmful to women and that they shouldn’t be afraid to buy men’s shampoo. \nWhich is nonsense as I already explained.", ">\n\nThe quality of shampoo should not be given by how harmful it is, to me, living in Europe, this notion was completely new, what i noticed here is that: \nLow quality shampoos have little degreasing power, \nHgh quality shampoos have high degreasing power, \nWoman's high quality shampoos have coconut oil in it. \nI guess in the us low quality shampoo manufacturers find more profitable to use potentially harmful substances than to sell a product that works poorly. People, please, shampoo it's a virtually useless product, y'all should not buy it at, all rather than possibly compromising on yours own's health.", ">\n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\nThe problem with shampoos is actually specifically that removal of buildup, if it’s too strong it strips your hair of its natural oils it needs.\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”", ">\n\n\n“Low quality” shampoos are exactly the ones with the highest “degreasing power”\n\nI did not explain myself properly, with low quality, low degreasing power i mean a product that really doesn't do shit. With high quality, high (higher i should have said) degreasing power i mean a product that does the job like it is supposed to do. not dish soap. \n\n? The main purpose of shampoo is to essentially remove buildup from your scalp.\n\nYeah, thank you, but do you actually need it? Will not using it give you a mysterious illness? Is it extremely antigenic not to use it? No, so now that i've read how unregulated chemicals are in the us i think i would just rinse my hair with water rather than risking exposing my skin for years to a possibly even carcinogenic substance.", ">\n\nFormer woman athlete here and I can say that women are not supporting sports, indeed. Men championships are more expensive and that's okay. Let's try to make ourselves better instead of wanting others to get worse.", ">\n\nI think you are putting too much emphasis on who is supporting who. Sports, at the end of the day, is entertainment. You watch sports because you enjoy watching the game played at a high level, thus are willing to spend money and time on it. The fact of the matter is, a lot of women’s sports are just not near the quality of men’s sports from a consumer standpoint. The WNBA is the best example. Lower scoring, slower paced, smaller ball, closer three point line than the NBA. Let’s say there was a second men’s league with the same quality of the product being put out for the fans as the WNBA. Would anyone choose to watch that when you have the actual NBA as an option? It’s not like the G league is bringing in much money/attendance and it’s still a better quality or product. Also what makes a basketball crowd go absolute wild? Huge slam dunks, which more or less never happens in the WNBA. \nNow this isn’t even true in every case at all. Look at MMA. Some of the highest selling ppv cards and most watched TV events ever have been headlined or co-headlined by women’s fights. They are also on the same cards as men’s fights. Tennis is another example. If you surveyed everyone in America and asked them to name one tennis player, men or women, the overwhelming majority would like say Serena Williams. \nSo the women’s sports leagues that aren’t making money aren’t really because of their gender, it’s because of the quality of product they are putting out for the fans.", ">\n\n1) you’re considering only one sports whereas other sports like women’s tennis are just as popular as their male counterparts\n2) women’s sports aren’t as popular because in general the potential around the world for a woman to become an athlete essentially doesn’t exist outside of the industrialized world at all, women are treated as second class citizens in a healthy portion of the world where they’re not allowed to drive or attend school let alone wear appropriate athletic clothing accordingly, that limits markets\n3) specifically for the wnba the athletes don’t have an opportunity to market themselves and create a brand like their male counterparts because in the off season they’re playing overseas in order to get more money, most athletes are on a livable wage in the wnba but it’s not luxurious by any means\n4) women’s sports are very popular specifically around the Olympics, women’s gymnastics, women’s volleyball, women’s beach volleyball among several others but Olympics sports in general don’t get the recognition other professional sports do outside of the Olympics that goes for men and women\n5) there also is the whole motherhood thing, male athletes make enough and their bodies do not go through massive changes during child birth to allow male athletes to dominate and be successful we’ll into their 40s, this isn’t the case for their female counterparts yes serena was able to come back to tennis after the birth of her child but she was nowhere near as dominant, you can see it in other sports too where it’s just really really really hard to get your body back to the point of being one of the best in the world after a 9 month layoff\nIn sum, no there isn’t one reason female athletes aren’t paid the same and a lot of it has to do with market share but as illustrated above there’s a tonnnnnnnn of other reasons too including longevity", ">\n\nWhy is that though? \nLike do you think things like access make it harder? \nFor example, in the year where the women’s euros were shown on major channels in the UK and televised live, 1 in 4 people in the UK watched live. Which is comparable to the mens. \nBefore that they were not majorly advertised or televised. If I want to watch women’s league… how do I? Do they get any where near the advertising even slightly? No. \nIs it impacted by women not being allowed to play in the same stadiums as men, making it consistently harder for people to show up?\nIs it impacted by commentators who show less enthusasism for the reason being they are women playing? \nIs it impacted by women being barred from these sports within the last century? With women being actively surpressed and pushed aside for their male counterparts? \nDo you think their achievements being overwritten by men impacts this? For example, where people were claiming Andy Murrary was the player with the most gold medals in Tennis, he wasn’t Serena and Venus Williams were. Or where recently people claim that multiple male football players have the most trophies and are the highest stat wise, they aren’t, Putellas is. \nDo you think that a thread throughout culture as seeing woman as the secondary sex effects how we treat women and treat their endevaours in all accounts?\ndo you think it is effectsd by how we treat youth leagues? For example not offering girls to play? Not giving then access to the same sports as men? And giving access later in life? \nFor example, 10 years ago, in my hometown there was and is a prominent youth football club. Prominent enough scouts from premier league clubs come for youth players. \nI was only allowed to play in the boys team until it got “serious” (until scouts began watching matches. There were no girls equivilant. Now there is, and they have a A team and B team for each age group. But, this isn’t common people travel hours to play, and the people that often have to travel multiple hours are girls. Do you think this has a carry on effect? \nCompared to boys where in a town of approx 40k have 4 different teams avaliable to join, where these hurdles to jump are not there.\nEDIT: \nI am not saying women’s sports should be paid the same. I am saying I think these reasons are a stronger case rather than there isn’t enough woman to woman solidarity\nI also do not know american football or basketball. Those sre not sports in my country.\nAlso… Capitalism and buisnesses existing does not mean the owners and people involved are devoid of bias. Remember, buisnesses used to turn away paying customers because of their prejudice. Capitalism existing does not mean people couldn’t possibly be sexist etc.", ">\n\n!delta\nI think that women’s sports does have less of a history than men’s sports which could play into the support. How long do you think it will take women’s sports to take hold now that opportunities are more abundant?", ">\n\ndecades at least, you need the grassroots level of girls to get into the sports who are only just now seeing them on TV and seeing it as a potential career path.", ">\n\nThe WNBA is sitting on 26 seasons. They play off set from the NBA so the seasons/games don’t cancel the other out. The WNBA still hemorrhages money. How many decades will it take?", ">\n\n26 seasons is 26 years?\nHow many 26 year olds have kids these days?\nSports are a generational thing. You learn the sports you play from your parents and you play with friends who have learned from their parents\nThe single most important statistic to predict if someone is going to become a successful professional athlete is if their parents were one (training routine is well known, other connections for training and opportunities, then some genetics)\nWe are at what generation two of professional women's basketball?\nLike most sporting stories, to become wildly popular it needs a star athlete who can be watched by families together and have movies made about their underdog story", ">\n\nOk, fine. You think the 26 years is not enough time. What about the women's March madness? It pulls in a 1/3rd of the viewership as the men's tournament. It been around for 40 years.\nThey technically are the same sport. But in no way are they the same game.", ">\n\nWNBA would be be over the moon if they brought in 1/3 of nba revenues", ">\n\nNaw, they'd still be ungrateful.", ">\n\nIt's not about gender supporting their own, it's about the sport itself and which is more entertaining.\nBasketball - men's sports are more entertaining because it's more physical/aggressive and they dunk.\nTennis - it's an even sport because the way the men and women play are pretty evenly entertaining. Some women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\nMost sports are dominated by men not because other men support it, it's because men are genetically/biology stronger (most of the time) that there's a lot more variables and possibilities that can happen, like how men continually break the world record for swimming or running. People care about record breaking results, regardless of gender - if a woman broke the world record (for all, not exclusive to girls) then she'd have more viewership.\nAnd note, the salary discrepancy in WNBA is because of the revenue. The NBA is actually subsidizing the WNBA.", ">\n\n\nSome women even play better than the men, and they're often watched.\n\nI don’t think this is really true at the top levels of tennis. Probably the 100 best men could each beat the #1 best women every time. I think sometimes you can watch games with mixed gender doubles, and basically a woman can never return a serve by a man.", ">\n\nTry like top 700 maybe even more.", ">\n\n\nWhy are corporations going to invest money into lucrative endorsements, television deals, marketing, etc, if women don’t care about it? As Bill Burr pointed out, and polls prove, women are much more likely to watch Real Housewives and or the Kardashians; and those women make millions if not billions.\n\nif women prefer the Kardashians then the solution is market women's sports to men because men prefer sports. would be foolish to rely on a demographic that prefers watching soap operas instead of the one that prefers watching football.", ">\n\nmen don't want to watch women's sports, this mostly applies to teams sports. \nit's for a variety of reasons, it could be argued that sexism is one. but imo sexism accounts for a inconsequential amount of their lack of viewership. \nperformance is the number 1 reason imo.\ndo people really believe that if women were more atheletic then men that nobody would watch due to sexism? \neven the most sexist men i know would still watch women if they are doing something physically impressive.", ">\n\nIf quality of the product was the main determination in how many people watch the games, then why are college sports so popular? They are not as good at the sport as professionals, yet a ton of people still watch them.", ">\n\nI think the main draw of college sport is familiarity. If I go to my nearest professional football team’s game they have millions of supporters and I will likely never interact with the players on the pitch. If I go watch my local college play, I could very likely have a beer with them after the match. The issue is that the average college football team is on par with or better than the average professional women’s football team in terms of quality, which doesn’t give me a good incentive to watch the women’s game. (No disrespect to the women players though, they are still miles better than the average Joe!)", ">\n\nI am not trying to compare the skill levels between college men and professional women, I am just pointing out that playing at the highest level is not a requirement for having a lot of fans. If fans only wanted to watch the very best, they wouldn’t watch college sports.. so there has to be something else that is the cause.", ">\n\nSome of that is representation too. People will cheer for their tier-3 team if they represent the highest level of competition that *represents you*.\nLike some small town in England will have fans simply because it represents the local populace.\nCollege alumni often feel similar, and sometimes college ARE the highest level of competition as I said above.\nThere is no sport or region in which a women's team isn't worse than multiple other teams representing the same geography or group (that I'm aware of).\nThe women's national team in in almost all sports gets mauled by high school boys, so it's hard to feel as \"represented\" by them.", ">\n\nI sincerely doubt the revenue cares for the genitals of where the money came from.\nThey don't earn as much because they're not as attractive for sponsors, whom the money the sponsors are after comes from is not irrelevant.", ">\n\nPeople watch what interests them. There are pro badminton players that are just as skilled at their craft as Lebron James is at Basketball. But, Americans don’t watch it. So there’s no money in it, in America. Women’s sports are similar. The audience is much smaller, which means less advertising, less sponsorships. Women golfers and tennis players seem to do well. It depends on the sport. \nYou can’t force people to care about something. Athletes are paid based on the popularity of the sport and the amount of revenue it generates based on viewership.", ">\n\nWomen in sports (wnba for example) aren’t asking to make the same money as men, they want the same percentage as their male counterparts. They currently aren’t getting that.", ">\n\n\nNow this is not to say that support for female leagues falls entirely on females, but if we want to compare it to male sports, which is marketed to and primarily supported by men, then the preponderance of the responsibility does.\n\nThe logic there is that since men sport mens sports, women should support women's sports. Right?\nBut why should men support mens sports? And is it even true? I couldn't find any statics about the gender makeup of different fan bases. the WNBA is not popular, but women's tennis is.\nmy intuition is that since most sports fans are men, most viewers of women's sports are probably also men. But I can't prove it.", ">\n\nYour intuition is correct wrt the WNBA. More men watch than women", ">\n\nFor the most part, there are no such things as men’s sports. Those competitions are typically open to everyone but at that elite level it’s only men who can compete. People of all genders like to watch the best of the best for entertainment which is why those competitions get more viewers than the artificially created women’s-only sports.", ">\n\nI'm all for enterprise. I way am. But the market has spoken. TV shows often get canceled after horrible reviews. New ones pop up that can attract and audience. I don't go to men's basketball games when I can watch it on my couch for the cost of a monthly cable bill. They're exciting around the playoffs, like all male dominated sports. With that, I don't think I'll ever go to a women's basket ball game after trying to watch one or two. Boring. The women are athletic, don't get me wrong, but I rarely hear about slam dunks after stealing a ball, dribbling crazy humanly possible and flying from the free throw line with an overhand center net slam dunk. Their wild personalized ball handling are incredible and then again, the occasional fights. I'm not alone in my thinking. And not just my gender. Women are not supporting women's pro basketball in America. It's bizarre to watch a women's basketball game that's part of national organization for more than 25 years. Don't ask for equality or equity. I'm for equity and equality in OPPORTUNITY to flourish, but not at the outcomes. Ask how you can make your industry a better product to attract a paying audience. Right now, your audience size is reflecting the attraction to your product. 2 cents, only.", ">\n\nThis is actually true. The reality is that most people that watch sports are guys, and we’d much rather watch guys play sports than girls. \nWomen on the other hand don’t watch sports as much. I’ll keep it real, every girl I know watches love island, kardashians, rupauls drag race, etc. for some reason most women rather watch reality TV than wnba, and most men would rather watch nba than wnba. \nI had an argument with my sister about why wnba players get paid less and I made the point that all these feminists argue for wnba players all day, but when the time comes they don’t even watch their games. They constantly complain how the nba players need to sacrifice their own salary and fund the wnba players, but these girls won’t even take time out of their day to watch a single wnba game. They’d much rather find out who Kim or kourtney is dating now. The harsh truth is that WNBA is really difficult to market to the regular tv watcher because it’s not as flashy as the nba. The people Ik that watch it are all basketball fundamental nerds. People that super deep into the technicalities of basketball. It’s always people that play basketball or coach it. I can even watch it because I’m into basketball on that level. But the avg nba watcher that just likes to watch lebron dunk on people and never plays ball couldn’t sit through wnba becuase it lacks that excitement. The average woman who can’t even sit through an exciting nba game, will def have even less interest in the wnba, yet they have the audacity to fight for them instead of becoming that audience the league needs to pay the players. It’s stupid.", ">\n\nEnterteinment gives lots of money but to get the money someone has to watch the show you give. \nSo you earn depending on that. People not seeimg woman sport and demanding that they should get more money makes absolutly no sense. And is just virtue signalling.", ">\n\nIt's not about supporting one sex vs another. The question people need to ask themselves is why would people watch women's sports as much as men's and for the same reason? It's like expecting the lower leagues to be as popular as the higher leagues and calling it unfair if they aren't.", ">\n\n\nTell me why this opinion is wrong.\n\nIs there anyone who thinks women get paid less for a reason other than less people watch women's sports? I guess I am confused as to who you expect to change your view. It might help to offer examples of what you have seen or read that say otherwise as a frame of reference.", ">\n\nSome argue it's because of discrimination of women and because of this, should be compensated.", ">\n\nThen you look at the WNBA and find out that they get paid way more per view than the NBA.", ">\n\nThe WNBA actually lose a pretty fat amount of money every year. To the point of like 88,000 a player in the negative", ">\n\nThere are no male sports. There are sports, and there are woman sports. Because women are allowed to play \"men's version of a sport\", they just can't play as good. And men just watch the best teams out there, not a 'limited league'.\nIt's foolish to expect someone (women, for example) to watch women sports out of solidarity. Because men don't watch sports out of solidarity.\nI watch sports because it's fun to watch. And the only female sport that I watch is woman's chess. Cuz I'm not that good, and their games are easier to follow.", ">\n\nThe reason that there are no \"male sports\" is most sports are designed to showcase skills that men tend to have.\nFor example, women tend to be able to keep a consistant pace in marathons better than men, tend to be suited more for endurance, and recover from fatigue faster. Additionally, balance is different, and flexibility tends to benefit woman.\nSo, yes, there is \"open\" and \"womens\", but that ignores that \"the sport was designed for men playing it\" angle.", ">\n\nSo what is an exciting sport that is an opportunity for women to excel over men? Because keeping the most consistent pace in a long/ultra-long distance race isn't exactly the most exciting measure of success.\nThere are very few sports which play to a woman's strengths that a man wouldn't still manage to dominate. The issue isn't just that most major sports were designed by and for men, it's that male advantage is so widespread that it is almost impossible to design a sport that women would be better at.\nFor a sport to be optimized for female bodies, it needs to play to the advantages of a lower body weight/smaller frame while also not benefiting from higher upper body strength, or just be super-long endurance. That means team sports are out, leaving a few gymnastic events where male competitors could still probably be competitive, and ultra-long distance races.", ">\n\nI think Ultra Long Distance sports would be fun. Tune in hours later and be like \"oh shit, the men all collapsed but the goat Tina Riley is still going strong!\" I picture like a Forrest Gump cross country (literally) thing.", ">\n\nULD races can be fun to watch short clips of, but no one is going to watch a 24 hour race in full, and it doesn't have the traction to maintain a large viewership.", ">\n\nyeah but you asked what's exciting and women can compete, not what's a sport that will maintain a large viewership", ">\n\nIs a sport that people only tune in for brief moments to see if anything interesting has happened in the last 5 hours actually \"exciting\"?\nUltra long distance races make for good human interest stories after the fact, if something actually happened during the race other than the racers running for a really long time, or if one of them has an interesting backstory. Beyond that, it's just \"wow, that's really impressive. Anyway...\"", ">\n\nI mean running in general doesn't have a good audance following because it is..... A bit boring. \nThere are lots of people who enjoy running and very low barriers of entry ( easy rules, different length races ) but that doesn't translate into viewing figures yet pretty much every lad who enjoys rugby, cricket ,tennis , soccer watches this and follows a team.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. There's a reason that Usain Bolt was so popular and yet I can't think of a runner in a +800m or longer race who's a household name. Long distance running becomes uninteresting real quick, and remains so until the first few finishers enter the final kick, then it becomes boring again.", ">\n\nAgree,\nEven then Usain bolt is the one of the Rare ones. He has loads of charisma and was the GOAT of running and ehas huge market appeal. \nThe 2nd best runner is who?", ">\n\nThe problem with women's sports is that they try to be too much like men when they are absolutely not. For the WNBA, maybe 1 or 2 people can dunk? And that's just barely getting a hand on the rim? Not exciting. In the NBA you have a handful of men who CANNOT dunk. If the WNBA made it so that the sport is different enough for women that they can make it entertaining, such as lowering the rim, then I think they would be better off. The women's sports are ignoring the basic biology that makes the top 1% in women's sports significantly inferior to the top 10% of men.", ">\n\nNo, it's because men are better at most sports because they're bigger, stronger and faster and thus most people (men and women), find it more entertaining to watch. People want to watch the best.", ">\n\nOccam's razor but people will come up with stupid bullshit to cause drama and be opressed.", ">\n\nThe best athletes make the most money. People want to watch the best humans at a sport. \nSo you'll never have the same support for womens sport cause it will never be as good as mens sports. \nPeople just need to get over it. There are other ways to live a happy life other than being a rich athlete.", ">\n\nI disagree that it’s about “the best athletes”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports and don’t understand the rules of the game, so who cares now? Vs men who played on teams and played casually and probably even bonded with their male relatives watching sports while women served their snacks in the background.", ">\n\n\n”. I think it’s more that so many women didn’t play sports\n\nI'm sorry every girl in the UK payed football, hockey, netball ect in school. I don't know about the whole world but I imagine that is similar. \n\nwhile women served their snacks in the background.\n\nMaybe 100 years ago. Not in the last 30 years.", ">\n\nYou’re right, I’m thinking more of American football, serving snacks for men during TV games, men watching football all day on Thanksgiving while the women make the meal, all part of common American life now and certainly within the last 30 years. They didn’t even have a Super Bowl or TV for watching sports 100 years ago. \nNever played soccer or hockey and never heard of netball ¯_(ツ)_/¯", ">\n\nIn this context hockey = Field Hockey", ">\n\n\nThey desperately need more investment….\n\nI don't necessarily disagree that they could use some marketing.\nBut you said that right after pointing out that they lost to a U15 FC Dallas boys team. This is not a marketing issue. This is a biology issue. Boys are just faster, stronger and more agile. No amount of marketing is going to fix that.", ">\n\nA professional world champion women’s team with better coaches and better equipment would/should easily be able to outsmart 14 year old boys. Despite the biological differences.", ">\n\nWhy do you think this? It isn't just soccer. It happens in quite literally every major sport. The Canada women's hockey teams play in the men's junior high school club leagues and lose all the time. That is roughly their competitive level.", ">\n\nThey’re playing the same sport, with the same requirement of skill level. It takes women the same amount of time out of the day to train, the same food and work out plans, the same equipment, the same number of off-team support members like coaches and managers, the same travel, the same schedule, the same everything. You don’t pay people off their viewership. That’s like saying if you have one male McDonald’s employee, and one female McDonald’s employee, you’re going to pay them based on how many people come to their drive through window, not on their merit or what it takes to do their job. People choosing to go to the man’s window more often doesn’t make his job any harder than hers, it just means people like him more. \nIf you’re going to say the wage gap is acceptable, womens sports and the skill, talent, and physical toll should be lesser than men’s and reflect their pay grade then. \nI also find it so interesting you say, “if WOMEN want them to be paid equally”. You’re making this a “women’s issue” of feminism or something, and it’s a weird way to expose your actual feelings. Because why wouldn’t men want equal pay for everyone unless there’s misogyny involved? Why does them getting equal pay without equal viewership UPSET you? How does it even affect you or ANY man on earth if a male and female basketball player have the same amount of money in their bank accounts?", ">\n\nDon’t blame this on simply women not supporting female leagues. Unfortunately, female leagues simply do not pull in enough revenue to support higher salaries. But the lack of revenue is driven by lack of support across the board. Both male and female. I don’t know what could solve this.", ">\n\nWhy does it need to be solved?", ">\n\nI know a lot of female players are upset they do not make the same as their male counterparts. Same effort but less money. Once the franchises start bringing in comparable revenue we will likely see salaries level off.", ">\n\nAnyone who uses \"effort\" to justify what a profession is worth and not the value that profession generates cannot be taken seriously.", ">\n\nI saw an interview with a WNBA player recently (don't remember the name, my apologies) in which she stated that the issue wasn't that they wanted the same pay as male players, but that they wanted the same percentage cut of sales. They receive a base salary, whereas male players receive a cut of ticket and merch sales.\nIts really easy to get lost in the popularity comparison, I did too for a long time, but it allows leagues to structurally undercompensate women athletes", ">\n\nThat ignores a very important point. The WNBA does not make any $. Any merch sales they do make go towards recouping some of the $ lost. They lose about $10,000,000 a year. Meanwhile the NBA is massively profitable.\nThe salaries cost WNBA $15mil a year and they lose $10mil. They would lose even more if they didn't include merch sales in that final figure. \nIt not a reasonable request as long as the WNBA is not profitable. If anything they should be thanking their lucky stars that the mens league is willing to subsidize them.", ">\n\nWomen sports aren’t nearly as produced as men’s sports. If women’s sports was as produced and competitive as men’s sports I’m sure more people would watch. But game tickets can be expensive, so why spend money on the less played up version? The only way women’s sports will be more watched is if it’s more interesting, and it won’t be more watched without more money, and it won’t make more money without being watched more. You see how this goes in a circle. You’re basically saying people should “invest” in women’s sports but why would anyone do that when men’s sports is an already existing, better option?" ]